Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1343860 times)

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1605 on: December 15, 2015, 02:28:29 PM »
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The Ingrams first stated intent was to see if they could turn the money in at a bank and get new bills back or a finder's fee - from a bank. That's what they told people and pursued. They even separated the money into groups and single bills, and cleaned them, with a bank reimbursement in mind. But that was before any hint of the money being important, least of all linked to the Cooper crime. That link came unexpectedly after a friend of Harold's suggested he should talk to a local Deputy ... which lead to him calling the FBI the end of the next work day, Monday,  at 5:00pm.

The original intent was to cash the money in at a bank. That was the Ingram's stated intention and the purpose for their actions prior to contacting law enforcement. Once the Cooper linkage surfaced with the money now being "important", the notion of a reward surfaced, and had the FBI's standing offer of a reward for information in the Cooper case not expired prior to the Ingram find, the FBI might very well have offered the Ingrams a reward. The FBI finally informed the Ingrams that a reward was not possible. The Ingrams began lobbying for a reward for Brian and even contacted area radio stations in that regard (both Pat and Crystal were interviewed) Crystal made a claim in behalf of her daughter, Denise, and pushed that at one radio station.

We know the rest -

The only thing suspicious to me are the conflicting stories about Brian building a fire, and sighting "a lump in the sand" before or after he started to move sand to build the socalled 'fire pit'. Brian has given conflicting accounts of that over the years. Fact is, he may not even remember exactly what happened and in what order. But at some point a "lump of something" became apparent to Brian, and Denise right next to him, and they dug to remove the obstacle ... and rather quickly it was apparent to Brian it was money ... a wad of money.

Brian says that the rubber bands were visible and intact, but "crumbled to dust when touched", or some variant of that story. I don't think Brian's story is physically possible, or happened as he says it happened? I am reminded of stories about opening mummies, "and for one instant he was there in perfect condition as if buried just minutes ago, and then turned to dust and nothing, right in front of our eyes!". I place Brian's account of the rubber bands in that category ... it's rather humorous and something an eight year old would say, after adults said it first?  :) The bands would not have been viable rubber bands, in any event.

In the end it's the forensics that matter.
         

It would be normal for an 8 year olds recollections to change.. but there are some strange things here,

They intended to build a fire at 3:30 Sunday afternoon when Brian found the "money" he claimed his parents thought it was "counterfeit", not usually a word an eight year old may understand, however the Sun sets at 6:00 at that time of year but they left the Bar at 5:30. So, 2 hours,,

Why intend to build a fire at 3:30 then leave in two hours before sunset?
Did they actually build that fire?
Why did they decide to leave within two hours well before sunset?
What did they do in those two hours?

At home the Bills were placed on a cabinet to dry..

Dwayne thought it was mob money or lost money.. (the counterfeit idea has changed)

Dwayne claims that Monday morning at 10 AM he calls a bank from work to inquire about exchanging the Bills, "they had to check the numbers." Perhaps Wayne had actually called the bank figure out how to get the numbers confirmed and proceed to get the reward..  did the Bank suggest calling the FBI?

He called FBI Monday evening. At a news conference he says he decided against taking it to local police because he thought he would never see it again. Later, he walks back that statement.

Did they leave the Bar because they thought the money was "counterfeit" or because Dwayne knew there wasn't any more. If, on Monday Dwayne thought it was mob money or lost why wouldn't he return to search for more, maybe the next weekend.

They never returned to look for more. Most people would have returned to look for more.. before giving up the location.

Pat had expected a $45,000 reward,,,

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But beyond those events, the money find is an extremely high sigma event, the serious fire in their home a sigma event, the arrest a sigma event.

event a X event b X event c = an off the charts probability. So, are they inter-related, the arrest was initiated by the exposure from the money find but what was the cause of the fire? was it a break in? a fight? a message from an accomplice.

Could Dwayne have found the money elsewhere or did he get it from somebody else who couldn't monetize it, perhaps to share any reward. Was Dwayne used by somebody else in an attempt to get the reward $$??  Was the house fire related to the money find?

The Ingrams moved away soon after this.. again this is all strange.

Brian Ingram is a member of this forum, but we haven't had much luck in getting him to come on and post.  He hasn't totally hidden himself away, though.  He did appear at the 2011 symposium and sat onstage during the Q&A period.  Try messaging him.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1606 on: December 15, 2015, 02:54:05 PM »
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One explanation is. the Ingrams were young semi-transient working class people with an unstable life-style, struggling economically during their younger years, people with lots of problems. I think that had been their history even prior to arriving at Vancouver. Brian apparently moved back to Arkansas in adulthood where I think the family originated. Brian has been more stable with strong church affiliations in adulthood. 

I dont see anything unusual in this. Young people with few opportunities move around a lot and accumulate all the expected 'life experiences' until they get some kind of footing. I am sure the last thing they expected was notoriety of the Cooper-kind! It was probably the last thing some of them wanted or needed at the time. Look at Pat's sullen face during the FBI news interview compared to Harold talking like a nervous magpie. The whole thing was completely out of their control and totally unexpected. Pat was by far the most resilient and I have a lot of respect for her.

Don;t be too quick to judge these people or read things into their story -

Dwayne was a painter at U-Cart Concrete Systems, did he quit his job? get fired? his employer was supportive after the find.. they just left the area suddenly..

If it was planted it likely wasn't known by the rest of the family.

Why did they leave the Bar in two hours, why didn't they return to look for more, that would be human nature. Young people with few opportunities, struggling economically should be eager to find MORE buried cash..

Their behaviour seems inconsistent with human nature, that alone doesn't prove anything but it raises some serious questions. We know the ramifications if Dwayne did plant the money there..

remember, no diatoms found..

The lack of diatoms indicates that the bills were never exposed to the Columbia River water, or at least until the bundles and other bills/fragments had been covered by a "protective" coating of sand or other goo.  While this argument can be used to support a plant theory, it also supports a theory that Cooper did not land in the Columbia River itself.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1607 on: December 15, 2015, 03:23:07 PM »
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The lack of diatoms indicates that the bills were never exposed to the Columbia River water, or at least until the bundles and other bills/fragments had been covered by a "protective" coating of sand or other goo.  While this argument can be used to support a plant theory, it also supports a theory that Cooper did not land in the Columbia River itself.

True, the lack of diatoms found is only suggestive, but they do exist in buried sand, they should have been there even if the money wasn't ever in the River. They may have been there but just not found.

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1608 on: December 15, 2015, 04:46:00 PM »
Fly, you've mentioned a few times that you are surprised that the Ingrams didn't go looking for more money after the initial discovery. However, Brian did tell me in Portland in 2011 that he and his family went looking all over the beach and didn't find any more money.

I believe him. Do you?

Brian's statements would seem to discount the federal version that when they showed up a couple days later they found shards on the beach, at the "tide line" down to a depth of 12 inches, and in a circular area beneath the initial tres bundolas down to three feet and radiating out for 20 yards, as stated by several agents, most notably the PIO Dorwin Schroeder and SA Mike McPheters. Their statements have been recorded here and elsewhere (such as my book!) on several occasions by multiple posters.

However, where the shards went after discovery has been an ongoing controversy. Your clip from the Eugene Register-Guard of 2. 13. 86 is very revealing, when it says that the money found at T-Bar stayed in the evidence room in Portland for the prior five years. This would seem to challenge Jerry Thomas' assertions that the "shards all went up to Seattle," as he posted recently, allegedly speaking for Himmelsbach. Remember, getting a more exact clarification from RH is tough, as he is a guy who won't talk without money up front unless one drives up to his front door unexpectedly and unannounced, as one Well-Known reporter did a few years ago....(smile).

Currently, I know of no one who knows where the shards are, or where any documentation might be on what was found and where. The Citizen Sleuths had a lot to say about this conundrum in 2011 in Portland. At least over breakfast...(Tom and Abracadabra).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 04:52:20 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1609 on: December 15, 2015, 04:51:33 PM »
T-Bar Mysteries

So, we really have two different, but related mysteries concerning Tina Bar.

1. How did the money get there?

2. Where did the money go when it left? Or more exactly, where did the shards go?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1610 on: December 15, 2015, 04:56:28 PM »
Diatoms

This is another mystery. Why were no diatoms found on the bills? Were they only exposed to the elements for a matter of hours at T-Bar, and as a result had no opportunity to develop a diatom-friendly environment?

Or, did all traces of diatoms vanish through natural means over the 35 years between discovery and testing by Tom Kaye and his crew?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1611 on: December 15, 2015, 05:01:47 PM »
Interesting factoid on Tom Kaye

Tom Kaye has a fascinating connection to a recent movie release on Netflix. "Dinosaur 13" is a superb documentary on the trials and tribulations of a team of paleontologists who found the 13th T. Rex ever discovered.

Tom knows all the principals involved, and I've exchanged a number of wonderful emails with him on the details of this very interesting case. I hope Tom makes a docu on the Politics of Paleontology! Or at least talks about this stuff in an expanded manner.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 05:18:58 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1612 on: December 15, 2015, 05:06:18 PM »
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Fly, you've mentioned a few times that you are surprised that the Ingrams didn't go looking for more money after the initial discovery. However, Brian did tell me in Portland in 2011 that he and his family went looking all over the beach and didn't find any more money.

I believe him. Do you?

Brian's statements would seem to discount the federal version that when they showed up a couple days later they found shards on the beach, at the "tide line" down to a depth of 12 inches, and in a circular area beneath the initial tres bundolas down to three feet and radiating out for 20 yards, as stated by several agents, most notably the PIO Dorwin Schroeder and SA Mike McPheters. Their statements have been recorded here and elsewhere (such as my book!) on several occasions by multiple posters.

I would believe him, but we don't have context in this regard, the article I posted claimed they were there for ONLY two hours after the discovery and they left 30 min before sunset,,, and didn't return?

They may have done a quick search, but not as thorough as one would expect finding buried cash.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1613 on: December 15, 2015, 08:44:07 PM »
Quote
They may have done a quick search, but not as thorough as one would expect finding buried cash.

If I found a wad of old cash buried just below the sand, I might think "what idiot buries his money like this?", I might even dig a bit deeper, just in case. But I don't think I'm in some kind of money burial grounds where wads of cash are laid to rest and all it will take to find more wads of cash is to dig in random spots up and down the sand bar. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1614 on: December 15, 2015, 09:36:25 PM »
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Quote
They may have done a quick search, but not as thorough as one would expect finding buried cash.

If I found a wad of old cash buried just below the sand, I might think "what idiot buries his money like this?", I might even dig a bit deeper, just in case. But I don't think I'm in some kind of money burial grounds where wads of cash are laid to rest and all it will take to find more wads of cash is to dig in random spots up and down the sand bar. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

A "financially struggling" family finds bundles of cash in shallow sand and leaves within 2 hours never to return to search..  and they were there for a picnic, anybody think they would have even had shovel with them..
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1615 on: December 15, 2015, 09:45:31 PM »
Not sure why you would need a shovel when all the money is basically on the surface.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1616 on: December 15, 2015, 10:16:11 PM »
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Not sure why you would need a shovel when all the money is basically on the surface.

That makes no sense, not until the FBI dug up the Bar did they know that. (other than the fragments)

The Ingrams did not know that at the time.

You find wads of cash under the surface and assume it is all shallow, so you don't look deeper and search briefly without a shovel and never return.

maybe if you planted it,
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1617 on: December 15, 2015, 11:27:05 PM »
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Diatoms

This is another mystery. Why were no diatoms found on the bills? Were they only exposed to the elements for a matter of hours at T-Bar, and as a result had no opportunity to develop a diatom-friendly environment?

Or, did all traces of diatoms vanish through natural means over the 35 years between discovery and testing by Tom Kaye and his crew?

You have this backasswards if you are trying to quote Tom Kaye, or whatever?!
Quote Tom Kaye:

"This is from Kaye's website.

"The modern bills soaked in the Columbia River were examined using a scanning electron microscope (SEM.) At least three different species of fresh water diatoms were found immediately. Subsequent examination of the Cooper bills found no diatoms. Not seeing any diatoms on the Cooper bills does not guarantee that they are not there, so any final conclusions on this would be speculative."

[previously published at DZ]
Dec 19, 2013, 9:49 PM
Post #49313 of 58140 (42019
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« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 11:28:54 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1618 on: December 15, 2015, 11:38:49 PM »
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One explanation is. the Ingrams were young semi-transient working class people with an unstable life-style, struggling economically during their younger years, people with lots of problems. I think that had been their history even prior to arriving at Vancouver. Brian apparently moved back to Arkansas in adulthood where I think the family originated. Brian has been more stable with strong church affiliations in adulthood. 

I dont see anything unusual in this. Young people with few opportunities move around a lot and accumulate all the expected 'life experiences' until they get some kind of footing. I am sure the last thing they expected was notoriety of the Cooper-kind! It was probably the last thing some of them wanted or needed at the time. Look at Pat's sullen face during the FBI news interview compared to Harold talking like a nervous magpie. The whole thing was completely out of their control and totally unexpected. Pat was by far the most resilient and I have a lot of respect for her.

Don;t be too quick to judge these people or read things into their story -

Dwayne was a painter at U-Cart Concrete Systems, did he quit his job? get fired? his employer was supportive after the find.. they just left the area suddenly..

If it was planted it likely wasn't known by the rest of the family.

Why did they leave the Bar in two hours, why didn't they return to look for more, that would be human nature. Young people with few opportunities, struggling economically should be eager to find MORE buried cash..

Their behaviour seems inconsistent with human nature, that alone doesn't prove anything but it raises some serious questions. We know the ramifications if Dwayne did plant the money there..

remember, no diatoms found..

The lack of diatoms indicates that the bills were never exposed to the Columbia River water, or at least until the bundles and other bills/fragments had been covered by a "protective" coating of sand or other goo.  While this argument can be used to support a plant theory, it also supports a theory that Cooper did not land in the Columbia River itself.

Kaye was unwilling to say the Cooper money had no diatoms - he just didn't see any that were obvious in the pieces of three bills he had to examine.

The FBI lab apparently did not look for diatoms in its examination of the bills sent them.  There is nothing in their reports that I have seen that mentions diatoms ..

However, diatoms are so endemic to this region, you would think anything exposed to the environment would pick up its share of diatoms except in specific conditions. As I understand Tom's experiment his bills picked up diatoms when exposed to open water, well oxygenated. Does this mean the Cooper money was never exposed to open surface water or a zone in water where diatoms flourish? Diatom experts in Washington I consulted were very skeptical of Tom's report and wanted to see several bills for themselves. But sometimes (old) diatom skeletons are not readily visible - sometimes stains are needed to reveal them?

Several more anecdotes feed into this problem. (a) Cooper bills were examined by the FBI lab on several occasions.  The lab typed the sediments found between the bills as 'consistent with river washed (round) sands like those found in the Columbia River'. But of course the money doesn't have to be "in the river", but just "exposed to Columbia River water", as near the water sufficient to be exposed to Columbia river sediments (which are everywhere in that area). No FBI lab report I am aware of mentions diatoms at all. (b) Palmer made an interesting comment when asked why the money/bills looked as good as they did and had survived 'on the beach'. Palmer answer was that 'upper active layer sand is sterile'. If the money had always been away from pools and regions where diatoms flourish, in a "sterile" environment, that might translate into little diatom exposure, which Kaye or anyone else would see as 'no evidence of diatoms'. But as Tom reports - all of this is speculation pending better more definite tests.

If it were to turn out that the Cooper money shows no diatoms at all while also yielding Columbia River (round) sands between the bills as well as other Columbia River water sediments, then some scenario of a rather specific nature has to explain those results, and that probably involves the history of the money since coming back to ground when Cooper had it.

We had arranged to have diatom and other testing done on Cooper money, but the owner of the money abruptly withdrew shutting the project down; much to the displeasure of a number of scholars and others involved who had volunteered to donate their resources to the project.

The fact that Tom's test bills showed diatoms so easily - as one would expect - while the Cooper bills did not show a similar result for Tom, is perplexing and could be because of the money's history between the time Cooper bailed and the Ingram's found the money 9 years later. Taken at face value it may mean the money was never in a diatom rich environment during this time. Only lab testing can clear this matter up.   
 

   
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 03:00:50 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1619 on: December 15, 2015, 11:43:18 PM »
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Fly, you've mentioned a few times that you are surprised that the Ingrams didn't go looking for more money after the initial discovery. However, Brian did tell me in Portland in 2011 that he and his family went looking all over the beach and didn't find any more money.

I believe him. Do you?

Brian's statements would seem to discount the federal version that when they showed up a couple days later they found shards on the beach, at the "tide line" down to a depth of 12 inches, and in a circular area beneath the initial tres bundolas down to three feet and radiating out for 20 yards, as stated by several agents, most notably the PIO Dorwin Schroeder and SA Mike McPheters. Their statements have been recorded here and elsewhere (such as my book!) on several occasions by multiple posters.

However, where the shards went after discovery has been an ongoing controversy. Your clip from the Eugene Register-Guard of 2. 13. 86 is very revealing, when it says that the money found at T-Bar stayed in the evidence room in Portland for the prior five years. This would seem to challenge Jerry Thomas' assertions that the "shards all went up to Seattle," as he posted recently, allegedly speaking for Himmelsbach. Remember, getting a more exact clarification from RH is tough, as he is a guy who won't talk without money up front unless one drives up to his front door unexpectedly and unannounced, as one Well-Known reporter did a few years ago....(smile).

Currently, I know of no one who knows where the shards are, or where any documentation might be on what was found and where. The Citizen Sleuths had a lot to say about this conundrum in 2011 in Portland. At least over breakfast...(Tom and Abracadabra).

You know very well the same agents you cite said the frags were bagged and tagged (in "check envelopes") and probably sent to Washington for analysis.

If H told you evidence from the dig was stored at Portland - that is NEWS! All other accounts say Seattle. I mean Seattle was in charge of the dig, not Portland and not Himmelsbach!