This area appears to be where the FBI flightpath crosses Burnt Bridge Creek. Near the Royal Oaks Country Club,

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in the Orchard area,, map from Sluggo's site - 1990

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that would put the jump time at 20:15,,

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and U-Cart Concrete was about 1 mile from there.

There is a quote in the "FBI Information" indicating that the flight crew reported that it was about 22 (or maybe 23) DME miles (which are nautical miles) south of what is now the Battleground VORTAC which was sent by teletype through the ARINC system.  This teletype message was sent at 8:22 PM.

However, the NWA personnel in Seattle and Minneapolis also had a phone patch for the actual radio voice hook-up between the airliner and the ARINC system.  Some people listening to the actual voice communications between the airliner and ARINC gave the time of transmission of that voice message as 8:18 PM.

When receiving a radio message, the ARINC personnel needed a few minutes to "format" the message and type it into their system.  The time of transmission over the teletype system was the 8:22 PM time which was automatically added at the bottom of the teletype print-out.

There is no way that the airliner could get from Orchards to their stated location in the time you give. 

Get yourself a pencil and pad of paper and do some checking on the times and distances involved here.  It may very well keep you from hanging your hat on a wrong theory.

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There is a quote in the "FBI Information" indicating that the flight crew reported that it was about 22 (or maybe 23) DME miles (which are nautical miles) south of what is now the Battleground VORTAC which was sent by teletype through the ARINC system.  This teletype message was sent at 8:22 PM.

However, the NWA personnel in Seattle and Minneapolis also had a phone patch for the actual radio voice hook-up between the airliner and the ARINC system.  Some people listening to the actual voice communications between the airliner and ARINC gave the time of transmission of that voice message as 8:18 PM.

When receiving a radio message, the ARINC personnel needed a few minutes to "format" the message and type it into their system.  The time of transmission over the teletype system was the 8:22 PM time which was automatically added at the bottom of the teletype print-out.

There is no way that the airliner could get from Orchards to their stated location in the time you give. 

Get yourself a pencil and pad of paper and do some checking on the times and distances involved here.  It may very well keep you from hanging your hat on a wrong theory.

You've read too much into my post, I was only indicating the point marked on the map (20:15) where the Burnt Bridge Creek and FBI flight path crossed, if the time written/estimated is inaccurate that is another issue.

Here's some things you should read and believe.

The "FBI flight path" apparently did not originate with the FBI.  The story on DZ is/was that the map in question was posted by the FBI in an effort to determine its origin.  And that effort was apparently unsuccessful.

Take that pencil and pad of paper, mentioned earlier, and do some calculations to see how those locations and times fit with that flight path.  They don't.

There is No Way On God's Green Earth that the so-called "FBI flight path" could be correct.  It is inconsistent within itself, does not agree with valid information from other sources, and in all probability is not the flight path that the airline flight crew would have chosen or flown in the Portland area.

So don't read ANYTHING into ANY flight path that is drawn on that map.

How do you know they were friends? The Fazios told me that Tina Bar was open to the public on an informal basis, and visitors were only asked to contribute 25c in a tip jar at the beach gate.

Also, I see that you're a Tena Bar, guy, even though the sign at the beach says Tina Bar. Smokin' says hat's a typo-ish mistake of the current era since the land was owned by the Tena family in the 1920s. But I keep track of these kinds of things...

this claims that they were friends with the landowners, may not be true though, Sluggo's site also makes the claim and I recall the reference in another article somewhere..

wouldn't be the first time a reporter "embellished"

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"Dwayne and Patricia Ingram enjoyed taking their two boys to a little stretch of sandy beach on the Columbia River near their Vancouver, Wash., home. Access to the beach was blocked by private property, but the Ingrams were friends with the landowners, and permission to pass through was never a problem."

as for Tena/Tina,,  Tena means shelter in Spanish usually referring to agricultural as in cattle or sheep/goats shelter...  who knows. Tena sounds more sophisticated. Tina is a more modern name with no meaning, locals used Tena and Tina?? I give the slight edge to Tena as the original name.

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How do you know they were friends? The Fazios told me that Tina Bar was open to the public on an informal basis, and visitors were only asked to contribute 25c in a tip jar at the beach gate.

Also, I see that you're a Tena Bar, guy, even though the sign at the beach says Tina Bar. Smokin' says hat's a typo-ish mistake of the current era since the land was owned by the Tena family in the 1920s. But I keep track of these kinds of things...

this claims that they were friends with the landowners, may not be true though, Sluggo's site also makes the claim and I recall the reference in another article somewhere..

wouldn't be the first time a reporter "embellished"

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"Dwayne and Patricia Ingram enjoyed taking their two boys to a little stretch of sandy beach on the Columbia River near their Vancouver, Wash., home. Access to the beach was blocked by private property, but the Ingrams were friends with the landowners, and permission to pass through was never a problem."

as for Tena/Tina,,  Tena means shelter in Spanish usually referring to agricultural as in cattle or sheep/goats shelter...  who knows. Tena sounds more sophisticated. Tina is a more modern name with no meaning, locals used Tena and Tina?? I give the slight edge to Tena as the original name.

Smokin is right - Tena goes back to the name of the original owner. Tena's Bar. It's no more complicated than that.

As for the Ingram find, it doesn't matter who was friends with who et cetera. By all accounts the money find was a complete surprise at the time. The FBI's Himmelsbach scrambled to find anything that would explain it then pressed that theory on the world, ie. The Washougal washdown theory, people then amended their accounts trying to justify a Washougal what-if theory, but none of it has ever worked as a proven explanation. That left the forensic evidence of the money and find itself and Larry Carr jumped to pursue that, but nothing of a definitive nature came of that. The excavation of Tina Bar was rushed and lacked scientific rigor. So here we are today debating the finder's motives and relationships in the world when the find was made! The whole thing is kind of humorous and a diversion ... so under the current regime this lack of resolution will go on forever, with the price of not knowing being born by society.

      

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Smokin is right - Tena goes back to the name of the original owner. Tena's Bar. It's no more complicated than that.

As for the Ingram find, it doesn't matter who was friends with who et cetera. By all accounts the money find was a complete surprise at the time. The FBI's Himmelsbach scrambled to find anything that would explain it then pressed that theory on the world, ie. The Washougal washdown theory, people then amended their accounts trying to justify a Washougal what-if theory, but none of it has ever worked as a proven explanation. That left the forensic evidence of the money and find itself and Larry Carr jumped to pursue that, but nothing of a definitive nature came of that. The excavation of Tina Bar was rushed and lacked scientific rigor. So here we are today debating the finder's motives and relationships in the world when the find was made! The whole thing is kind of humorous and a diversion ... so under the current regime this lack of resolution will go on forever, with the price of not knowing being born by society.
 

In the 70's many locals used Tena, so there is no "correct" name, nitpicking on the name is ridiculous. It is just informal, the original mapped name of the area including Caterpillar Island up to and including Tena Bar was previously called "Upper Willow Bar".

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The Ingrams and the entire money find is a bizarre story.. that doesn't mean it wasn't legit nor that it shouldn't be challenged. It was reported in more than one place that they were friends with the landowners, that may be entirely false, but if true what was the relationship? The Ingrams were new to Vancouver.. Dwayne worked for U-Cart concrete, Fazios were in the sand and gravel business? A work connection? There is something in this story that is "off" but the find may still be legit. The Ingrams took the money home and to work? So, the site was spoiled.. you'd expect fragments even in a plant situation.  Then they had a major fire in their house and Dwayne was arrested for an outstanding warrant.. each can be explained in isolation but in totality, it is weird.

If it was planted then only Dwayne knew, did he find the money buried elsewhere or obtain it from the Fazios? from co-workers?

I still have trouble with the fact that they didn't spend more time looking for more money, at least weeks. A very short search and calling the police within days goes against human nature. Pat did say they expected a big reward..

The Ingrams first stated intent was to see if they could turn the money in at a bank and get new bills back or a finder's fee - from a bank. That's what they told people and pursued. They even separated the money into groups and single bills, and cleaned them, with a bank reimbursement in mind. But that was before any hint of the money being important, least of all linked to the Cooper crime. That link came unexpectedly after a friend of Harold's suggested he should talk to a local Deputy ... which lead to him calling the FBI the end of the next work day, Monday,  at 5:00pm.

The original intent was to cash the money in at a bank. That was the Ingram's stated intention and the purpose for their actions prior to contacting law enforcement. Once the Cooper linkage surfaced with the money now being "important", the notion of a reward surfaced, and had the FBI's standing offer of a reward for information in the Cooper case not expired prior to the Ingram find, the FBI might very well have offered the Ingrams a reward. The FBI finally informed the Ingrams that a reward was not possible. The Ingrams began lobbying for a reward for Brian and even contacted area radio stations in that regard (both Pat and Crystal were interviewed) Crystal made a claim in behalf of her daughter, Denise, and pushed that at one radio station.

We know the rest -

The only thing suspicious to me are the conflicting stories about Brian building a fire, and sighting "a lump in the sand" before or after he started to move sand to build the socalled 'fire pit'. Brian has given conflicting accounts of that over the years. Fact is, he may not even remember exactly what happened and in what order. But at some point a "lump of something" became apparent to Brian, and Denise right next to him, and they dug to remove the obstacle ... and rather quickly it was apparent to Brian it was money ... a wad of money.

Brian says that the rubber bands were visible and intact, but "crumbled to dust when touched", or some variant of that story. I don't think Brian's story is physically possible, or happened as he says it happened? I am reminded of stories about opening mummies, "and for one instant he was there in perfect condition as if buried just minutes ago, and then turned to dust and nothing, right in front of our eyes!". I place Brian's account of the rubber bands in that category ... it's rather humorous and something an eight year old would say, after adults said it first?  The bands would not have been viable rubber bands, in any event.

In the end it's the forensics that matter.
           

There are a lot of very odd things about the money find. Doesn't mean it was planted and set up for Brian, but the T Bar find has always smelled funny to me.

IF there really was a debris filed of currency shards (either buried or along the tide line, there are accounts of both) that would, in my opinion, rule out a plant.

If there was a shard field, where are the evidence samples? Surely some would have been collected.

377

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The Ingrams first stated intent was to see if they could turn the money in at a bank and get new bills back or a finder's fee - from a bank. That's what they told people and pursued. They even separated the money into groups and single bills, and cleaned them, with a bank reimbursement in mind. But that was before any hint of the money being important, least of all linked to the Cooper crime. That link came unexpectedly after a friend of Harold's suggested he should talk to a local Deputy ... which lead to him calling the FBI the end of the next work day, Monday,  at 5:00pm.

The original intent was to cash the money in at a bank. That was the Ingram's stated intention and the purpose for their actions prior to contacting law enforcement. Once the Cooper linkage surfaced with the money now being "important", the notion of a reward surfaced, and had the FBI's standing offer of a reward for information in the Cooper case not expired prior to the Ingram find, the FBI might very well have offered the Ingrams a reward. The FBI finally informed the Ingrams that a reward was not possible. The Ingrams began lobbying for a reward for Brian and even contacted area radio stations in that regard (both Pat and Crystal were interviewed) Crystal made a claim in behalf of her daughter, Denise, and pushed that at one radio station.

We know the rest -

The only thing suspicious to me are the conflicting stories about Brian building a fire, and sighting "a lump in the sand" before or after he started to move sand to build the socalled 'fire pit'. Brian has given conflicting accounts of that over the years. Fact is, he may not even remember exactly what happened and in what order. But at some point a "lump of something" became apparent to Brian, and Denise right next to him, and they dug to remove the obstacle ... and rather quickly it was apparent to Brian it was money ... a wad of money.

Brian says that the rubber bands were visible and intact, but "crumbled to dust when touched", or some variant of that story. I don't think Brian's story is physically possible, or happened as he says it happened? I am reminded of stories about opening mummies, "and for one instant he was there in perfect condition as if buried just minutes ago, and then turned to dust and nothing, right in front of our eyes!". I place Brian's account of the rubber bands in that category ... it's rather humorous and something an eight year old would say, after adults said it first?  The bands would not have been viable rubber bands, in any event.

In the end it's the forensics that matter.
         

It would be normal for an 8 year olds recollections to change.. but there are some strange things here,

They intended to build a fire at 3:30 Sunday afternoon when Brian found the "money" he claimed his parents thought it was "counterfeit", not usually a word an eight year old may understand, however the Sun sets at 6:00 at that time of year but they left the Bar at 5:30. So, 2 hours,,

Why intend to build a fire at 3:30 then leave in two hours before sunset?
Did they actually build that fire?
Why did they decide to leave within two hours well before sunset?
What did they do in those two hours?

At home the Bills were placed on a cabinet to dry..

Dwayne thought it was mob money or lost money.. (the counterfeit idea has changed)

Dwayne claims that Monday morning at 10 AM he calls a bank from work to inquire about exchanging the Bills, "they had to check the numbers." Perhaps Wayne had actually called the bank figure out how to get the numbers confirmed and proceed to get the reward..  did the Bank suggest calling the FBI?

He called FBI Monday evening. At a news conference he says he decided against taking it to local police because he thought he would never see it again. Later, he walks back that statement.

Did they leave the Bar because they thought the money was "counterfeit" or because Dwayne knew there wasn't any more. If, on Monday Dwayne thought it was mob money or lost why wouldn't he return to search for more, maybe the next weekend.

They never returned to look for more. Most people would have returned to look for more.. before giving up the location.

Pat had expected a $45,000 reward,,,

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But beyond those events, the money find is an extremely high sigma event, the serious fire in their home a sigma event, the arrest a sigma event.

event a X event b X event c = an off the charts probability. So, are they inter-related, the arrest was initiated by the exposure from the money find but what was the cause of the fire? was it a break in? a fight? a message from an accomplice.

Could Dwayne have found the money elsewhere or did he get it from somebody else who couldn't monetize it, perhaps to share any reward. Was Dwayne used by somebody else in an attempt to get the reward $$??  Was the house fire related to the money find?

The Ingrams moved away soon after this.. again this is all strange.

One explanation is. the Ingrams were young semi-transient working class people with an unstable life-style, struggling economically during their younger years, people with lots of problems. I think that had been their history even prior to arriving at Vancouver. Brian apparently moved back to Arkansas in adulthood where I think the family originated. Brian has been more stable with strong church affiliations in adulthood. 

I dont see anything unusual in this. Young people with few opportunities move around a lot and accumulate all the expected 'life experiences' until they get some kind of footing. I am sure the last thing they expected was notoriety of the Cooper-kind! It was probably the last thing some of them wanted or needed at the time. Look at Pat's sullen face during the FBI news interview compared to Harold talking like a nervous magpie. The whole thing was completely out of their control and totally unexpected. Pat was by far the most resilient and I have a lot of respect for her.

Don;t be too quick to judge these people or read things into their story -   

 

One explanation is. the Ingrams were young semi-transient working class people with an unstable life-style, struggling economically during their younger years, people with lots of problems. I think that had been their history even prior to arriving at Vancouver. Brian apparently moved back to Arkansas in adulthood where I think the family originated. Brian has been more stable with strong church affiliations in adulthood. 

I dont see anything unusual in this. Young people with few opportunities move around a lot and accumulate all the expected 'life experiences' until they get some kind of footing. I am sure the last thing they expected was notoriety of the Cooper-kind! It was probably the last thing some of them wanted or needed at the time. Look at Pat's sullen face during the FBI news interview compared to Harold talking like a nervous magpie. The whole thing was completely out of their control and totally unexpected. Pat was by far the most resilient and I have a lot of respect for her.

Don;t be too quick to judge these people or read things into their story -

Dwayne was a painter at U-Cart Concrete Systems, did he quit his job? get fired? his employer was supportive after the find.. they just left the area suddenly..

If it was planted it likely wasn't known by the rest of the family.

Why did they leave the Bar in two hours, why didn't they return to look for more, that would be human nature. Young people with few opportunities, struggling economically should be eager to find MORE buried cash..

Their behaviour seems inconsistent with human nature, that alone doesn't prove anything but it raises some serious questions. We know the ramifications if Dwayne did plant the money there..

remember, no diatoms found..