Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1342030 times)

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1575 on: December 13, 2015, 01:25:32 PM »
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Ingram lived at 1500 Markel Street, Vancouver, Washington.

that is NOT the address that I found, so I checked dropzone, you posted "Harold & Patricia lived at 1500 Market St Vancouver." that doesn't exist as SNOWMMAN replied,,

"I can't find any Market St. in Vancouver. 

The address I had (forgot the source) was 2517 E 35th St. Vancouver, which is just E of I5

possibly shared with David R. Ingram, who is two years older than Harold?

Where did you get the Market St. info? is it wrong? do any of my notes above jibe with any notes you have? "


I have 2517 33rd St, Vancouver, WA 98663 NOT 35th as SNOWMMAN wrote.

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you also wrote "U-Cart Manufacturing Co at 63rd and Andersen, Vancouver WA)" there is a 63rd and Andresen not Anderson. Is this correct for U-Cart Concrete??

I did find U-Cart Concrete systems at:
6137 NE 63RD ST
VANCOUVER, WA 98686

which is now Walnut Grove Industrial Park, only 1 block from 63rd and Andresen

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« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 02:32:35 PM by FLYJACK »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1576 on: December 13, 2015, 02:04:07 PM »
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The reason I do not believe the Ingrams staged the money find is their behavior following the discovery.  Any time since the original discovery they could have easily told the "true" story and parlayed that information into some decent money (book, treatment, story rights, etc).  If they found the money in the vicinity of a body, "cha ching!" 

Another motivating factor would be fame/attention.  They seemed to enjoy being the center of attention (as most people do) at the press conference, and if they had information that would lead to the solution of this mystery, then they would receive plenty more attention for that.

The two above mentioned factors would, in my opinion, outweigh and negative repercussions of coming forth with the "real" story.

If Dwayne was the only one in on the plant, having his son find it and become "famous" would make it hard to take back, the proceeds of the money was tied up for some time as well. So, Dwayne would have been committed. To change the story and cop to a plant would be very difficult. Hypothetically, if he did plant it, exposing the source of the bills may be problematic.

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Flyjack,

You need to visit the Tina Bar/Vancouver Lake area.  There is no indication whatsoever that dredged materials from Vancouver Lake or anywhere else were put on top of, or anywhere close to, the already existing paved NW Lower River Road.  And that road was built prior to 1970.

There are some agricultural fields between the NW Lower River Road and Vancouver Lake and dredged materials may have been put in that area.  But there is an abrupt drop of about 5 feet or so between the River Road and those fields.

There may be no indication, but that doesn't mean there wasn't dredge material distributed there.  The 1977 pilot dredge program maps out a spot that the spoils were placed. The reclamation work went on from 78-82 with the channel work being done after the money find.

The crosshatch area shown in the map from a 1973 letter discussing intended fill distribution. It includes Tena Bar..
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 02:06:59 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1577 on: December 13, 2015, 02:45:48 PM »
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Flyjack,

You need to visit the Tina Bar/Vancouver Lake area.  There is no indication whatsoever that dredged materials from Vancouver Lake or anywhere else were put on top of, or anywhere close to, the already existing paved NW Lower River Road.  And that road was built prior to 1970.

There are some agricultural fields between the NW Lower River Road and Vancouver Lake and dredged materials may have been put in that area.  But there is an abrupt drop of about 5 feet or so between the River Road and those fields.

Quote
There may be no indication, but that doesn't mean there wasn't dredge material distributed there.  The 1977 pilot dredge program maps out a spot that the spoils were placed. The reclamation work went on from 78-82 with the channel work being done after the money find.

The crosshatch area shown in the map from a 1973 letter discussing intended fill distribution. It includes Tena Bar..

Skyjack, I cannot identify Tina Bar on the map you included.  Can you point out Caterpillar Island?  You need to take a detailed look at the maps and photos that Shutter and Georger have posted on this site and DZ related to the immediate Tina Bar area.

The marina in the channel between the east shore of the Columbia River and Caterpillar Island was there prior to the mid-1970s.  It is clearly visible on aerial photographs take in that time period and which are posted on both this site and DZ.

The money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.  The next dredging of the Columbia River in that area was necessary due to Mt. St. Helen's blowing its top about May 1980.  It put so much ash into the Columbia River watershed that shipping had to be stopped between Portland and the Pacific until the river shipping channel could be dredged.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 02:49:37 PM by Robert99 »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1578 on: December 13, 2015, 03:06:28 PM »
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Ingram lived at 1500 Markel Street, Vancouver, Washington.

that is NOT the address that I found, so I checked dropzone, you posted "Harold & Patricia lived at 1500 Market St Vancouver." that doesn't exist as SNOWMMAN replied,,

"I can't find any Market St. in Vancouver. 

The address I had (forgot the source) was 2517 E 35th St. Vancouver, which is just E of I5

possibly shared with David R. Ingram, who is two years older than Harold?

Where did you get the Market St. info? is it wrong? do any of my notes above jibe with any notes you have? "


I have 2517 33rd St, Vancouver, WA 98663 NOT 35th as SNOWMMAN wrote.

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you also wrote "U-Cart Manufacturing Co at 63rd and Andersen, Vancouver WA)" there is a 63rd and Andresen not Anderson. Is this correct for U-Cart Concrete??

I did find U-Cart Concrete systems at:
6137 NE 63RD ST
VANCOUVER, WA 98686

which is now Walnut Grove Industrial Park, only 1 block from 63rd and Andresen

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My document says "1500 Markel Street, Vancouver, Washington". Markel may be a typo. It may be "Markle" ? But it's not "Market", I don't believe. This is the address Harold gave LE and reporters at the 1980 news event with FBI agent Himmelsbach in Feb 1980. I think there is a news video of that event. Does he give his address on that video? Shutter do you know anything about this?

Why dont you ask Brian who is here sometimes, or Tom Kaye or JT who are longtime personal friends of Brian ?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 03:30:43 PM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1579 on: December 13, 2015, 03:15:47 PM »
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Skyjack, I cannot identify Tina Bar on the map you included.  Can you point out Caterpillar Island?  You need to take a detailed look at the maps and photos that Shutter and Georger have posted on this site and DZ related to the immediate Tina Bar area.

The marina in the channel between the east shore of the Columbia River and Caterpillar Island was there prior to the mid-1970s.  It is clearly visible on aerial photographs take in that time period and which are posted on both this site and DZ.

The money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.  The next dredging of the Columbia River in that area was necessary due to Mt. St. Helen's blowing its top about May 1980.  It put so much ash into the Columbia River watershed that shipping had to be stopped between Portland and the Pacific until the river shipping channel could be dredged.

I have seen those aerial photos and understand, here is Caterpillar Island on that map, putting Tena Bar within the marked crosshatched area.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 03:16:31 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1580 on: December 13, 2015, 03:41:54 PM »
Up until the early 90's, Markle street ran south to almost the river. a major road was put in (west mill plain blvd) it appears to run right through the area where the Ingram's once lived. Plain Blvd. is also 15 street. odds are the property is no longer around....
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 03:43:04 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1581 on: December 13, 2015, 03:54:44 PM »
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Skyjack, I cannot identify Tina Bar on the map you included.  Can you point out Caterpillar Island?  You need to take a detailed look at the maps and photos that Shutter and Georger have posted on this site and DZ related to the immediate Tina Bar area.

The marina in the channel between the east shore of the Columbia River and Caterpillar Island was there prior to the mid-1970s.  It is clearly visible on aerial photographs take in that time period and which are posted on both this site and DZ.

The money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.  The next dredging of the Columbia River in that area was necessary due to Mt. St. Helen's blowing its top about May 1980.  It put so much ash into the Columbia River watershed that shipping had to be stopped between Portland and the Pacific until the river shipping channel could be dredged.

I have seen those aerial photos and understand, here is Caterpillar Island on that map, putting Tena Bar within the marked crosshatched area.

One of Snow's early theories, if I recall this correctly, was that "if" the flight path was somewhat west of the FBI flight path map, Cooper might have been a "no-pull" and augured into Vancouver Lake mud. We had the same documents you have indicating material being removed from Vancouver Lake and moved elsewhere. I forget all of the objections that were raised to the theory that Vancouver lake spoils could be the source of the Cooper money. You would have to go back and read everything that was discussed on this topic at Dropzone over a long period of time ... but, one objection was that money had never been discovered at any location other than at Tina Bar. If the money had come from lake spoils spread at different areas, you might expect multiple sightings of Cooper money at different locations? 

If you assume that the money was with Cooper at his drop, then you have to account for Cooper's or his money's presence, west of I5, in the Vancouver Lake area? I do recall that Snowmman 'wanted' Cooper to have augured in somewhere in this vicinity, because it could then account for Cooper money winding up 'downstream' of a Vancouver Lake position, by natural means.
   
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1582 on: December 13, 2015, 03:56:25 PM »
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Up until the early 90's, Markle street ran south to almost the river. a major road was put in (west mill plain blvd) it appears to run right through the area where the Ingram's once lived. Plain Blvd. is also 15 street. odds are the property is no longer around....

I also seem to remember Brian saying "we moved around a lot" ? Only Brian could confirm this.

But wasn't it you who posted the FBI news conference video with Harold and Pat? Do they give their address on that video?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 03:58:44 PM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1583 on: December 13, 2015, 04:07:01 PM »
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One of Snow's early theories, if I recall this correctly, was that "if" the flight path was somewhat west of the FBI flight path map, Cooper might have been a "no-pull" and augured into Vancouver Lake mud. We had the same documents you have indicating material being removed from Vancouver Lake and moved elsewhere. I forget all of the objections that were raised to the theory that Vancouver lake spoils could be the source of the Cooper money. You would have to go back and read everything that was discussed on this topic at Dropzone over a long period of time ... but, one objection was that money had never been discovered at any location other than at Tina Bar. If the money had come from lake spoils spread at different areas, you might expect multiple sightings of Cooper money at different locations? 

If you assume that the money was with Cooper at his drop, then you have to account for Cooper's or his money's presence, west of I5, in the Vancouver Lake area? I do recall that Snowmman 'wanted' Cooper to have augured in somewhere in this vicinity, because it could then account for Cooper money winding up 'downstream' of a Vancouver Lake position, by natural means.
   

Scenario,, Cooper had a no pull under the FBI flight path and "some" money made it into Burnt Bridge Creek which flows gently from the flight path to Vancouver Lake.. since Vancouver Lake drains downstream of Tena Bar, it would have had to be from dredging activity.

I believe there are/were farmers fields and some wooded areas at the convergence of Burnt Bridge Creek and the FBI flight path.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1584 on: December 13, 2015, 04:10:24 PM »
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One of Snow's early theories, if I recall this correctly, was that "if" the flight path was somewhat west of the FBI flight path map, Cooper might have been a "no-pull" and augured into Vancouver Lake mud. We had the same documents you have indicating material being removed from Vancouver Lake and moved elsewhere. I forget all of the objections that were raised to the theory that Vancouver lake spoils could be the source of the Cooper money. You would have to go back and read everything that was discussed on this topic at Dropzone over a long period of time ... but, one objection was that money had never been discovered at any location other than at Tina Bar. If the money had come from lake spoils spread at different areas, you might expect multiple sightings of Cooper money at different locations? 

If you assume that the money was with Cooper at his drop, then you have to account for Cooper's or his money's presence, west of I5, in the Vancouver Lake area? I do recall that Snowmman 'wanted' Cooper to have augured in somewhere in this vicinity, because it could then account for Cooper money winding up 'downstream' of a Vancouver Lake position, by natural means.
   

Scenario,, Cooper had a no pull under the FBI flight path and "some" money made it into Burnt Bridge Creek which flows gently from the flight path to Vancouver Lake.. since Vancouver Lake drains downstream of Tena Bar, it would have had to be from dredging activity.

I believe there are/were farmers fields and some wooded areas at the convergence of Burnt Bridge Creek and the FBI flight path.

That might be an area to check out! We went through a similar scenario when Sluggo identified Orchards as a possible area ... we were even looking at graveyards in that area and I forget why! But it was fun.  :) :) :) :)

Maybe this will entice Sluggo to bring back his soul to the discussion ???? On can hope.  ;)
 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 04:11:43 PM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1585 on: December 13, 2015, 04:10:48 PM »
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Up until the early 90's, Markle street ran south to almost the river. a major road was put in (west mill plain blvd) it appears to run right through the area where the Ingram's once lived. Plain Blvd. is also 15 street. odds are the property is no longer around....

I also seem to remember Brian saying "we moved around a lot" ? Only Brian could confirm this.

But wasn't it you who posted the FBI news conference video with Harold and Pat? Do they give their address on that video?

probable, since there was a major fire at their rented house,

Motive, they had expected a $45,000 reward for the find,, and the Ingrams separated after they moved away but got back together

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I find it odd that they just moved to Vancouver and were friends with the land owners at Tena Bar..
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1586 on: December 13, 2015, 04:17:18 PM »
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Up until the early 90's, Markle street ran south to almost the river. a major road was put in (west mill plain blvd) it appears to run right through the area where the Ingram's once lived. Plain Blvd. is also 15 street. odds are the property is no longer around....

I also seem to remember Brian saying "we moved around a lot" ? Only Brian could confirm this.

But wasn't it you who posted the FBI news conference video with Harold and Pat? Do they give their address on that video?

probable, since there was a major fire at their rented house,

Motive, they had expected a $45,000 reward for the find,, and the Ingrams separated after they moved away but got back together

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I find it odd that they just moved to Vancouver and were friends with the land owners at Tena Bar..

I seem to remember, somewhere buried in the bowls of this discussion, is a kind of explanation by Harold of why and how they went to Tina Bar ... I dont know if he knew the Fazio's but I seem to remember somebody told him about Tina Bar, a good fishing and outing place to take the family? It may have come through somebody at is work, and there may indeed have been a connection through U-Cart and the Fazios operation? But thousands of people knew about Tina Bar and went there ...   it wasn't some private secret. People clear to Seattle knew the Fazio's and Tina Bar! People in foreign countries knew about the place. It was an open recommendation to the whole world ... and a major fishing location known to thousands+. And the whole area a hotly debated public resource ...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 04:22:51 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1587 on: December 13, 2015, 04:44:18 PM »
These discussions over 'plant' always come back to the issue of 'fragments' and whether there were fragments at depth 'in a flow field' leading up to the Ingram find at some distance away, or not. If this was the morphology in a flow field, with fragments present, then very likely this is NOT a plant situation.

Only facts can resolve this.   
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1588 on: December 13, 2015, 05:21:30 PM »
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I seem to remember, somewhere buried in the bowls of this discussion, is a kind of explanation by Harold of why and how they went to Tina Bar ... I dont know if he knew the Fazio's but I seem to remember somebody told him about Tina Bar, a good fishing and outing place to take the family? It may have come through somebody at is work, and there may indeed have been a connection through U-Cart and the Fazios operation? But thousands of people knew about Tina Bar and went there ...   it wasn't some private secret. People clear to Seattle knew the Fazio's and Tina Bar! People in foreign countries knew about the place. It was an open recommendation to the whole world ... and a major fishing location known to thousands+. And the whole area a hotly debated public resource ...

this claims that they were friends with the landowners, may not be true though, Sluggo's site also makes the claim

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"Dwayne and Patricia Ingram enjoyed taking their two boys to a little stretch of sandy beach on the Columbia River near their Vancouver, Wash., home. Access to the beach was blocked by private property, but the Ingrams were friends with the landowners, and permission to pass through was never a problem.
Brian Ingram, then 8, fulfilled a number of childhood adventures at his family's special getaway spot, skipping rocks along the water and swimming in the river."
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1589 on: December 13, 2015, 06:35:42 PM »
This area appears to be where the FBI flightpath crosses Burnt Bridge Creek. Near the Royal Oaks Country Club,

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in the Orchard area,, map from Sluggo's site - 1990

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that would put the jump time at 20:15,,

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and U-Cart Concrete was about 1 mile from there.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 07:12:02 PM by FLYJACK »