Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1433707 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1530 on: October 25, 2015, 07:00:08 PM »
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IF Cooper actually landed in the Columbia River, and I don't think he did, then he would almost certainly have landed in the river after it makes its turn to the North towards Tina Bar and not in the portion of the river that flows East to West through Portland and Vancouver.

Do you base this solely on the timing of the jump, or is there a hydrological reason?

At the present time, there is nothing that conclusively supports any flight path for the airliner in the Vancouver/Portland area.  However, there is evidence (which has been discussed at length both here and on DZ) that the airliner flew directly from about the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection and bypassed Portland on the west side.

The direct route from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection passes almost directly (within a few hundred feet) overhead of Tina Bar.  The distance from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection is 67.0 nautical miles.

According to a note in the "FBI files" that are online and a copy of the ARINC teletypewriter print outs, the airliner reported at 8:22 PM PST that it was 23 DME miles south of the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.  However, an individual from NWA gives the time of arrival of that voice message as 8:18 PM PST in Seattle which was phone-patched into the ARINC radio communications.

On the direct route from the Malay to Canby Intersections, this corresponds to a point that is 19 nautical miles south of Tina Bar.  If the airliner had a ground speed of exactly 3.0 nautical miles per minute, this would put the airliner 6:20 (minutes:seconds) south of Tina Bar.  This means that the airliner passed overhead of Tina bar at about 8:11:40 PM PST.

If the money landed directly on Tina Bar, which it did not, then Cooper would have had to separate from the airliner about 8:11:35 PM, assuming a 1500 foot "throw distance".  Cooper would have to separate from the airliner within the next 3.5 nautical miles or he would have landed on solid ground in Portland itself.  This means that the latest time that Cooper could have jumped and landed in the Columbia River would be about 8:12:45 PM.

The above assumes that Cooper was a no-pull, no cross wind, etc..  In reality, Cooper was probably a no-pull and there was a cross wind.  This means that Cooper impacted land or water within about 40 to 60 seconds after separating from the aircraft.  So the airliner was probably about over the western edge of the Columbia River when Cooper jumped.  And he probably impacted on land on the east side of the Columbia River or on Caterpillar Island itself.

All of the above numbers can be refined if accurate data about the airliner's actual flight path can be located.  Nevertheless, the jump time estimates are consistent with the presently available data.

From a hydrological point of view, if Cooper had landed in the area of the Columbia River that runs east and west, I think he and/or the money would have ended up on the western bank of the Columbia rather than the eastern bank.  Going around that 90 degree turn would cause that.


What is the time frame you are putting the plane at the Maylay intersection, I'm getting approx. 45 nautical miles to Tina Bar, or approx. 15 minutes.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1531 on: October 25, 2015, 10:38:44 PM »
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IF Cooper actually landed in the Columbia River, and I don't think he did, then he would almost certainly have landed in the river after it makes its turn to the North towards Tina Bar and not in the portion of the river that flows East to West through Portland and Vancouver.

Do you base this solely on the timing of the jump, or is there a hydrological reason?

At the present time, there is nothing that conclusively supports any flight path for the airliner in the Vancouver/Portland area.  However, there is evidence (which has been discussed at length both here and on DZ) that the airliner flew directly from about the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection and bypassed Portland on the west side.

The direct route from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection passes almost directly (within a few hundred feet) overhead of Tina Bar.  The distance from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection is 67.0 nautical miles.

According to a note in the "FBI files" that are online and a copy of the ARINC teletypewriter print outs, the airliner reported at 8:22 PM PST that it was 23 DME miles south of the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.  However, an individual from NWA gives the time of arrival of that voice message as 8:18 PM PST in Seattle which was phone-patched into the ARINC radio communications.

On the direct route from the Malay to Canby Intersections, this corresponds to a point that is 19 nautical miles south of Tina Bar.  If the airliner had a ground speed of exactly 3.0 nautical miles per minute, this would put the airliner 6:20 (minutes:seconds) south of Tina Bar.  This means that the airliner passed overhead of Tina bar at about 8:11:40 PM PST.

If the money landed directly on Tina Bar, which it did not, then Cooper would have had to separate from the airliner about 8:11:35 PM, assuming a 1500 foot "throw distance".  Cooper would have to separate from the airliner within the next 3.5 nautical miles or he would have landed on solid ground in Portland itself.  This means that the latest time that Cooper could have jumped and landed in the Columbia River would be about 8:12:45 PM.

The above assumes that Cooper was a no-pull, no cross wind, etc..  In reality, Cooper was probably a no-pull and there was a cross wind.  This means that Cooper impacted land or water within about 40 to 60 seconds after separating from the aircraft.  So the airliner was probably about over the western edge of the Columbia River when Cooper jumped.  And he probably impacted on land on the east side of the Columbia River or on Caterpillar Island itself.

All of the above numbers can be refined if accurate data about the airliner's actual flight path can be located.  Nevertheless, the jump time estimates are consistent with the presently available data.

From a hydrological point of view, if Cooper had landed in the area of the Columbia River that runs east and west, I think he and/or the money would have ended up on the western bank of the Columbia rather than the eastern bank.  Going around that 90 degree turn would cause that.


What is the time frame you are putting the plane at the Maylay intersection, I'm getting approx. 45 nautical miles to Tina Bar, or approx. 15 minutes.

I measure the distance from the Malay Intersection to Tina Bar as 43.5 nautical miles.  It takes it takes 14:30 minutes to fly that distance with a ground speed of exactly 3.0 miles per hour.  Substracting that time from my earlier estimate of the airliner being over Tina Bar at 8:11:40 PM, gives a time of 7:57:10 PM at the Malay Intersection.  One of the FBI maps gives a time of 8:00 PM for the airliner to be at Malay.

I believe that both you and I found problems in our first look at the matter with the airliner getting to Malay from take-off in Seattle much earlier than we anticipated from looking at the FBI maps.  That 2:50 minute discrepancy shown above is almost 9 nautical miles.

Again, it should be remembered that the above will probably change by a minute or so once more accurate date are available. 



 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1532 on: October 25, 2015, 11:01:48 PM »
The problem with KSEA to Ed Carlson field is they don't hold a constant speed from these points. at least not the first part of the flight. this gives a time of 23 minutes, or 7:59 at KTDO. then on to Malay which chimes in at 8:00. this is with a takeoff time of 7:36:30. this is tricky due to all the speed changes and flap settings in this leg. it's a crap shoot to the time of reaching Toledo.



 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1533 on: October 25, 2015, 11:06:27 PM »
It's a lot easier for the FAA, or NTSB to recreate flights. they have the black box telling them everything. I'm kinda shooting from the hip.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1534 on: October 26, 2015, 12:35:15 AM »
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The problem with KSEA to Ed Carlson field is they don't hold a constant speed from these points. at least not the first part of the flight. this gives a time of 23 minutes, or 7:59 at KTDO. then on to Malay which chimes in at 8:00. this is with a takeoff time of 7:36:30. this is tricky due to all the speed changes and flap settings in this leg. it's a crap shoot to the time of reaching Toledo.

If the airliner took off from SEATAC at exactly 7:36:30 PM and arrived at the Malay Intersection at exactly 7:59:00 PM, it would have covered a distance of 64.0 nautical miles in exactly 22:30 minutes:seconds at an average ground speed of 2.84 miles per minute (about 171 knots).  That is despite having about a 20 knot headwind component.

The airliner reported that it was leveling at 10,000 feet at 7:53:54 PM but did not give its location at that time.  That is 17:24 minutes:seconds after takeoff and 5:06 minutes:seconds before arriving at the Malay Intersection.  After leveling off, the airliner's ground speed would have been about 3 nautical miles per minute and from that, it can be estimated that the airliner was about 15 nautical miles north of the Malay Intersecton when it reached 10,000 feet.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1535 on: October 26, 2015, 04:02:31 PM »
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Unless some other source can be shown which explains 'element-x' at Tina Bar, the one logical source is the 1974 dredging spoils pulled from a region known to contain element-x, those dredging spoils then deposited on Tina Bar in 1974

Why is Tom against the dredge theory if this is the logical source? I would believe this theory, but only if it can get past the pump. it is extremely logical, but can it become a fact?

I cant speak for Tom, but my feeling is (a) Tom didn't think the presence of element-x in his bill scans was unusual, (b) he didn't think the level of 'x' was significant enough to warrant further exploration, (c) he thought the USGS chemist's claims were either bogus or nonsense or wrong, (d) ... the horoscope for element-x was wrong!   :)

Fact is, until I talked to the USGS chemist I saw nothing unusual about element-x in Tom's scans. It was the USGS chemist that raised a flag the moment I mentioned element-x.

Tom's claim was that there were no 1974 dredging sediments left six years later in 1980, on Tina Bar, to contaminate anything with. The USGS chemist wasn't sure about that claim.

The chemist suggested that wood, trees, and other artifacts at Tina Bar be tested for element-x and compared with similar artifacts from other beaches on the Columbia - as a control. He suggested that some lab work should also be done to establish a dose-response timeline for exposure to element-x; he said the USGS had already done some studies and he would get that info to me ....

A primary question we were tasked to answer was "when" the money had arrived on Tina Bar. Contamination levels might help answer that, but the work was not completed ... Tom didn't think the presence of element-x was significant and he had other priorities. Frankly, I was being intimidated from every possible angle and I (and others) finally just said "Fuck it!" and I dropped the whole thing to wait for Tom's work to be completed. Later I set up a second round of testing using Brian Ingram bills but word of that leaked out and that was shot down also! Ingram abruptly cancelled delivering money specimens to us! (People were really pissed and at that point we literally gave up on this whole fiasco ...everything had become political.) Those are the facts.   :(   
       

Still, it sounds like an experiment we can do, assuming we can get the material from the Columbia to test.

Without bill samples there is no point ???

I have a Cooper twenty, N of one, so not sure how useful it would be. I'd be happy to loan it to Tom and Al for non destructive testing. I do trust those guys.

377
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1536 on: October 26, 2015, 04:13:48 PM »
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Unless some other source can be shown which explains 'element-x' at Tina Bar, the one logical source is the 1974 dredging spoils pulled from a region known to contain element-x, those dredging spoils then deposited on Tina Bar in 1974

Why is Tom against the dredge theory if this is the logical source? I would believe this theory, but only if it can get past the pump. it is extremely logical, but can it become a fact?

I cant speak for Tom, but my feeling is (a) Tom didn't think the presence of element-x in his bill scans was unusual, (b) he didn't think the level of 'x' was significant enough to warrant further exploration, (c) he thought the USGS chemist's claims were either bogus or nonsense or wrong, (d) ... the horoscope for element-x was wrong!   :)

Fact is, until I talked to the USGS chemist I saw nothing unusual about element-x in Tom's scans. It was the USGS chemist that raised a flag the moment I mentioned element-x.

Tom's claim was that there were no 1974 dredging sediments left six years later in 1980, on Tina Bar, to contaminate anything with. The USGS chemist wasn't sure about that claim.

The chemist suggested that wood, trees, and other artifacts at Tina Bar be tested for element-x and compared with similar artifacts from other beaches on the Columbia - as a control. He suggested that some lab work should also be done to establish a dose-response timeline for exposure to element-x; he said the USGS had already done some studies and he would get that info to me ....

A primary question we were tasked to answer was "when" the money had arrived on Tina Bar. Contamination levels might help answer that, but the work was not completed ... Tom didn't think the presence of element-x was significant and he had other priorities. Frankly, I was being intimidated from every possible angle and I (and others) finally just said "Fuck it!" and I dropped the whole thing to wait for Tom's work to be completed. Later I set up a second round of testing using Brian Ingram bills but word of that leaked out and that was shot down also! Ingram abruptly cancelled delivering money specimens to us! (People were really pissed and at that point we literally gave up on this whole fiasco ...everything had become political.) Those are the facts.   :(   
       

Still, it sounds like an experiment we can do, assuming we can get the material from the Columbia to test.

Without bill samples there is no point ???

I have a Cooper twenty, N of one, so not sure how useful it would be. I'd be happy to loan it to Tom and Al for non destructive testing. I do trust those guys.

377

Would you loan it to Blevins! ???    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

There are also labs at Walmart.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 04:18:34 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1537 on: October 26, 2015, 07:35:21 PM »
I just don't share the hatred of Blevins. The venom magnet just doesn't pull me.

But my Cooper twenty only gets loaned to people who are doing real science. I don't care much about what degrees they have. Anyone who restored and maintains an old SEM is OK in my book.

The Citizen Sleuth team made some potentially important discoveries on the tie that the FBI totally missed. I give them a lot of credit for that. Nice folks too. I hung out with Tom, Al and Carol in Portland and really enjoyed their company.

So go ahead and flame me. Tom K does respectable science and Blevins isn't an evil monster.

Donning Asbestos and Nomex jumpsuit right now.  ;)

377

 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1538 on: October 26, 2015, 11:22:59 PM »
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I just don't share the hatred of Blevins. The venom magnet just doesn't pull me.

But my Cooper twenty only gets loaned to people who are doing real science. I don't care much about what degrees they have. Anyone who restored and maintains an old SEM is OK in my book.

The Citizen Sleuth team made some potentially important discoveries on the tie that the FBI totally missed. I give them a lot of credit for that. Nice folks too. I hung out with Tom, Al and Carol in Portland and really enjoyed their company.

So go ahead and flame me. Tom K does respectable science and Blevins isn't an evil monster.

Donning Asbestos and Nomex jumpsuit right now.  ;)

377

... and we are focused on the case and not personalities or social media opportunities, lies or other subversive bullshit!

Please take stock of why and what we are here for ?   :-*
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 11:51:20 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1539 on: October 30, 2015, 08:40:07 PM »
If, as R99 believes, Cooper landed outside of the Columbia and near Tina Bar, then it might still be possible to find his remains on Caterpillar Island:

Quote
Q. What is the time limit on cadaver dogs finding human remains?

A. There’s not a known time limit, but there’s some interesting work going on in the Mississippi Delta where dogs are helping find bones and remains from Mound civilization burials (a Native American culture) that go back 800 or 1,200 years. There is very little scent associated with these old bones. There’s much to be learned here in terms of exactly what the dogs are detecting in these bones. But there are enough positive alerts and recoveries that we know dogs are capable of doing this. Dogs have also been used to help find the remains of missing military personnel in Vietnam.

Read more here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Has anyone tried using a cadaver dog in these areas?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1540 on: October 30, 2015, 08:54:07 PM »
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If, as R99 believes, Cooper landed outside of the Columbia and near Tina Bar, then it might still be possible to find his remains on Caterpillar Island:

Quote
Q. What is the time limit on cadaver dogs finding human remains?

A. There’s not a known time limit, but there’s some interesting work going on in the Mississippi Delta where dogs are helping find bones and remains from Mound civilization burials (a Native American culture) that go back 800 or 1,200 years. There is very little scent associated with these old bones. There’s much to be learned here in terms of exactly what the dogs are detecting in these bones. But there are enough positive alerts and recoveries that we know dogs are capable of doing this. Dogs have also been used to help find the remains of missing military personnel in Vietnam.

Read more here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Has anyone tried using a cadaver dog in these areas?


Flyjack was on here with that theory. he showed links to them finding people 300 feet below the surface. I'd bet if the bones were close to the surface they would find them?


Quote
Dogs have also been used to help find the remains of missing military personnel in Vietnam.

Kinda answers it right there...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 08:56:27 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1541 on: October 31, 2015, 12:46:16 AM »
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If, as R99 believes, Cooper landed outside of the Columbia and near Tina Bar, then it might still be possible to find his remains on Caterpillar Island:

Quote
Q. What is the time limit on cadaver dogs finding human remains?

A. There’s not a known time limit, but there’s some interesting work going on in the Mississippi Delta where dogs are helping find bones and remains from Mound civilization burials (a Native American culture) that go back 800 or 1,200 years. There is very little scent associated with these old bones. There’s much to be learned here in terms of exactly what the dogs are detecting in these bones. But there are enough positive alerts and recoveries that we know dogs are capable of doing this. Dogs have also been used to help find the remains of missing military personnel in Vietnam.

Read more here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Has anyone tried using a cadaver dog in these areas?


Flyjack was on here with that theory. he showed links to them finding people 300 feet below the surface. I'd bet if the bones were close to the surface they would find them?


Quote
Dogs have also been used to help find the remains of missing military personnel in Vietnam.

Kinda answers it right there...

Ive never heard that cadaver dogs were used during the Tina Bar excavation ? But, several agents who worked the find mention that one of the hopes was that they might run across Cooper remains! They didnt rule it in, or out. They didn't know what they were going to find ... one more reason (in Schreuder's mind as he explains it) for laying out a grid of the excavation, so finds could be mapped ("like an archaeological dig", Schreuder says). Schreuder told me had always had an interest in archaeology. Accordingly, Agent Schreuder layed out his grid right at the start, before any serious digging could commence. 

Did the FBI make a map of their dig? No one seems to think a map was made. It's still an open question.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 12:51:02 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1542 on: November 13, 2015, 04:31:11 PM »
Did we ever go over this article? "Formless fist size clump"....finding more than just pieces on the beach?

I don't know if they made a map..
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 06:14:07 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1543 on: November 14, 2015, 03:29:45 AM »
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Did we ever go over this article? "Formless fist size clump"....finding more than just pieces on the beach?

I don't know if they made a map..

Been cited before -
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1544 on: November 16, 2015, 03:11:53 PM »
Tom posts a photo and labels it: "Fig 5. Bill stack showing alignment in deeper part of bundle".

How does Tom know that? How deep, in what bundle. Since according to Blevins there are "3 bundolas" which bundola does Tom's photo represent and where was that bundola in the three bundolas?

Since original information about what Ingrams found and pulled from the ground is lost (they never kept track, no photos, money separated at apartment then separated further by Himmelsbach etal at the Portland office in time for a photo-news conference at Actions News News Action, a subsidiary of Talcom Powder Ford@ of Tacoma...) did anyone try to recover the structure of the original Ingram find? And how in hell can Tom Kaye remote see his way through that now?

We see approx 12 groups of money in the FBI Portland News Conference photo. How do these groups assemble back into the total group Ingrams found? Does anyone know? The Ingrams lost the original structure ordering.  So when Kaye says "alignment in deeper part of bundle" ... how does Kaye know that? Deeper relative to what? Or is it that Larry Carr told Kaye one of his bills came from 'deeper in the bundle' and how in blazes does Carr know that?

The point of all of this Shim-Shamery, Tom Foolery, Bravdo, and Bally Hoo, is the shifting of the bills within the group of bills the Ingrams found. Rotation (or torsion) or other notable movements of bills relative to each other somewhere within the total structure of the amorphous  wad of money the Ingrams found ... which some genius said were being held together by rubber bands "but they turned to dust when touched"!

Not all "shifting" of bills is equal, I think. When did the bills shift next to each other, under what circumstances? In the money pouch or bag Cooper carried? Before the money rejoined the earth when Cooper bailed? Or, does the shifting represent forces acting on the bills as they sat somewhere in nature waiting for discovery? Had the shifting occurred before the Ingrams found and handled the money?  Because when the money was new, bills would have shifted more easily versus after the bills were in water or all mucked up with sediment ... what forces shifted the bills and when and where?

Strange that with all of the esoteric tests Tom did he seems to have failed to do any "shift" tests? Especially when "shifting" is a basic issue Tom then tries to address and extract meaning from?

Tom also notes "perfect alignment" of some of the bills with print bleeding into print - precisely. That as a separate fact of the money in addition to bills shifting?  Perfect align of some - shifting of others.

If as some say the money that the Ingrams found consisted of groups of bills stuck together by sediment, then can we conclude that any bill shifting occurred before the groups of money got stuck together in 'nearly cemented groups of bills which we still have not separated ...'

 ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 03:15:02 PM by georger »