Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1343965 times)

Offline 377

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MAC SOG Billy Waugh etc OSCAR 8
« Reply #1485 on: September 15, 2015, 01:04:26 PM »
Found this while searching for MAC SOG radio direction finding info:

Damn, these guys were brave. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1486 on: September 15, 2015, 02:06:46 PM »
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This is a wonderful discussion. I've just realized that I always assumed that the pressure bump was the oscillation - that they were one and the same. Now I see that two dynamics were occurring: a pressure bump and a couple oscillations.

Remember the pressure thumps I felt as jumpers exited the DC 9 ahead of me over Chanute AFB in 2006? I could have accurately counted every jumper who preceded me even if I had been blindfolded. Pressure door and stairs were removed to allow fast dump of 85 skydivers. Some kind of pressure event was occurring, perhaps a reflection from jumpers hitting the fast slipstream?  G probably has a good explanation.

377

One more thing:

What planes in the 1970s era had a cockpit activated rear stairs - any? Could Cooper have got the idea that the rear stairs could be lower from the cockpit, from some other plane he was more familiar with?

See this Georger:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

Well Cooper seemed to have the expectation that the cockpit crew could control the rear stairs - it was either a false expectation based on ignorance or some experience he had had he thought applied ?
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1487 on: September 15, 2015, 03:08:56 PM »
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The oscillation, according to the flight crew from the McCoy hijacking caused a howling through out the cockpit once he was on the stairs. once they leave the stairs, the stairs bounce back up causing a rapid pressure change similar to closing the door in your house and seeing the curtains jump from the pressure change....this will register on the engineers panel...the climb rate gauge will show the difference.

I think the howling was through out the airplane....

Thats very interesting! Confirmation.

Those aneroid rate instruments are VERY sensitive. I have one on my living room shelf. If I slam the front door the needle blips and my 100+ year old house is far from air tight.

G, not a shred of evidence that Cooper had any kind of comm or nav radio device, not even a crude one. Of course I wish he did. A hand held CB radio could have put him in touch with a CB radio equipped accomplice many miles away if the accomplice were sited on a peak. I used a low power radio under parachute canopy operating right next to the 11 M CB band (10 M ham band) and talked with a number of ground stations up to 50 miles distant.

I've been trying to research what radio gear the MAC SOG guys used in Viet Nam to rendezvous on the ground post jump. Some evidence that it was a small broadcast band beacon and imported transistor radios with directional ferrite bar antennas. Hard to imagine that working well, but maybe it did. Those receivers would have 180 degree bearing ambiguity but you could figure the right bearing by seeing if signal strength increased or diminished as you followed it.

377

There is no evidence he had anything sophisticated on him. He might have had something as simple as a crystal radio detector on him and I say this because Cooper seems to be operating technically at a very low-simple level employing simple techniques to solve every technical problem; perhaps even including his bomb?

Beyond whether Cooper's bomb is real or not, he has assembled the 'presentation of a bomb'. All of the ingredients of a bomb. He demonstrates the simplicity of his device saying 'all I have to do is touch these two wires together'. 'His hand was in the brief case at all times'. (well we know that's partly true but was not always true). Now he's throwing words and ideas out like "electronic", "electronic fusing", 'electrical/electronic induction', etc. Cooper is conveying the impression that his is a 'technological hijacking' backed up by technical knowledge. But the one real element of his crime is he has assembled all of the ingredients for a bomb ... and if I understand it correctly he has chosen to sit right underneath a storage locker of oxygen bottles? His note started it all and there is no way he's getting out of this short of going to jail ...

His bomb and his words about it are central to this whole affair. He gives the impression that he might have a military (or paratrooper) demolitions background, foreign or domestic?  If you take everything he has personally constructed and said about his construction together, this guy has some kind of demolition background ... which appears to be military. That may be his calling card ? 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 03:13:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1488 on: September 15, 2015, 04:49:00 PM »
Georger wrote:" this guy has some kind of demolition background..."

May we revisit former smokejumper Sheridan Peterson?

"Smokejumper recruits learn the basics of rugged terrain parachuting during an intense five week training course in smokejumper and fire management operations. Returning jumpers receive a two week refresher course. Crew Boss and type 4 Incident Commander fire qualifications, and an FAA Parachute Rigger certification for every smokejumper is one of the training goals at the McCall Smokejumper base. Advanced fire-related skills such as Division Boss, C-Faller, Fireline Explosives Blaster, Incident Commander, or Prescribed Fire Burn Boss are developed on an individual basis."

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1489 on: September 15, 2015, 07:46:38 PM »
Quote
. All of the ingredients of a bomb. He demonstrates the simplicity of his device saying 'all I have to do is touch these two wires together'.


That indicates a basic explosive. if Cooper had an electrical detonator stuck in the dynamite, and the wires attached to the battery with a break in one of the wires, all he would have to do is complete the circuit by connecting the wires in his hand and BOOM. (if it was real)

It appears he was bluffing by stating electrical devices, or radio transmissions could set it off. nobody seen anything remotely close to a timer type of bomb, or anything with a circuit board attached. nothing he mentioned could of set it off accidentally.

Then you have Tina pleading with him to take the bomb. or disarm etc. perhaps he was worried about prints, or just didn't want them to know if it was real, or fake?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1490 on: September 15, 2015, 07:58:58 PM »
I forgot the guys name who gave out the "chest packs"...can he be contacted to give more detail on what the dummy chute looked like? Cooper expressed his thoughts on things that went wrong, or what he didn't ask for (money bag) why didn't he say anything about the chute? "no funny stuff" a bad chute is about as funny as it gets  :P

A lot of times someone who is arrogant, or believes he is above everyone else tends to cut corners. perhaps he felt he didn't need the instructions for the chute. he decided to improvise the money bag. he bluffs about the bomb etc. etc?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 07:59:52 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1491 on: September 15, 2015, 11:05:28 PM »
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I forgot the guys name who gave out the "chest packs"...can he be contacted to give more detail on what the dummy chute looked like? Cooper expressed his thoughts on things that went wrong, or what he didn't ask for (money bag) why didn't he say anything about the chute? "no funny stuff" a bad chute is about as funny as it gets  :P

A lot of times someone who is arrogant, or believes he is above everyone else tends to cut corners. perhaps he felt he didn't need the instructions for the chute. he decided to improvise the money bag. he bluffs about the bomb etc. etc?

Are you talking about Linn Emrich...he was still in Issaquah as of 2014....I think he is involved with  Issaquah Historical Society.

BTW...if anyone is into geocaching..I know SLugoo used to be into it.....You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login......
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1492 on: September 15, 2015, 11:28:32 PM »
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Georger wrote:" this guy has some kind of demolition background..."

May we revisit former smokejumper Sheridan Peterson?

"Smokejumper recruits learn the basics of rugged terrain parachuting during an intense five week training course in smokejumper and fire management operations. Returning jumpers receive a two week refresher course. Crew Boss and type 4 Incident Commander fire qualifications, and an FAA Parachute Rigger certification for every smokejumper is one of the training goals at the McCall Smokejumper base. Advanced fire-related skills such as Division Boss, C-Faller, Fireline Explosives Blaster, Incident Commander, or Prescribed Fire Burn Boss are developed on an individual basis."

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377

yes he has a diverse rather amazing background.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1493 on: September 15, 2015, 11:30:33 PM »
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Quote
. All of the ingredients of a bomb. He demonstrates the simplicity of his device saying 'all I have to do is touch these two wires together'.


That indicates a basic explosive. if Cooper had an electrical detonator stuck in the dynamite, and the wires attached to the battery with a break in one of the wires, all he would have to do is complete the circuit by connecting the wires in his hand and BOOM. (if it was real)

It appears he was bluffing by stating electrical devices, or radio transmissions could set it off. nobody seen anything remotely close to a timer type of bomb, or anything with a circuit board attached. nothing he mentioned could of set it off accidentally.

Then you have Tina pleading with him to take the bomb. or disarm etc. perhaps he was worried about prints, or just didn't want them to know if it was real, or fake?

He said his bomb was "electronic" vs. electrical. That's a step up.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1494 on: September 16, 2015, 12:00:14 AM »
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Quote
. All of the ingredients of a bomb. He demonstrates the simplicity of his device saying 'all I have to do is touch these two wires together'.


That indicates a basic explosive. if Cooper had an electrical detonator stuck in the dynamite, and the wires attached to the battery with a break in one of the wires, all he would have to do is complete the circuit by connecting the wires in his hand and BOOM. (if it was real)

It appears he was bluffing by stating electrical devices, or radio transmissions could set it off. nobody seen anything remotely close to a timer type of bomb, or anything with a circuit board attached. nothing he mentioned could of set it off accidentally.

Then you have Tina pleading with him to take the bomb. or disarm etc. perhaps he was worried about prints, or just didn't want them to know if it was real, or fake?

He said his bomb was "electronic" vs. electrical. That's a step up.


I believe detonators that require power would be considered "electronic" or electrical?

"The commercial use of explosives uses electrical detonators or the capped fuse which is a length of safety fuse to which an ordinary detonator has been crimped."

I don't see anything else needed for the type of bomb that is described.

Electronic detonators would be a handheld device that wouldn't require a battery separate from the switch. they are in the switch. Cooper seems to have had a break in the circuit from the battery to the detonator. I don't see anything else needed.

The old school plungers generated the power needed to the detonator then the dynamite dynamite could explode. they had two leads from the plunger to the dynamite.

Unless I'm missing a step, I believe this is accurate..

He could of added a switch instead of holding the wires, so he could of been nervous doing that, or it was fake and he did the two wires for dramatic purposes? (speculation)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 12:11:40 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1495 on: September 16, 2015, 08:29:08 AM »
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Quote
. All of the ingredients of a bomb. He demonstrates the simplicity of his device saying 'all I have to do is touch these two wires together'.


That indicates a basic explosive. if Cooper had an electrical detonator stuck in the dynamite, and the wires attached to the battery with a break in one of the wires, all he would have to do is complete the circuit by connecting the wires in his hand and BOOM. (if it was real)


He said his bomb was "electronic" vs. electrical. That's a step up.


I believe detonators that require power would be considered "electronic" or electrical?

Electronic detonators would be a handheld device that wouldn't require a battery separate from the switch. they are in the switch. Cooper seems to have had a break in the circuit from the battery to the detonator. I don't see anything else needed.

He could of added a switch instead of holding the wires, so he could of been nervous doing that, or it was fake and he did the two wires for dramatic purposes? (speculation)
Using two wires instead of a proper trigger, or even a simple switch for that matter, shows the lack of technical sophistication of the Cooper suspect.  If someone actually had access to dynamite, then they would more than likely have access to the proper trigger.  A person with military demolition training wouldn't be running around with a briefcase filled with explosives and a couple of wires with bare ends flopping freely in the case.  He would have spent a couple of extra bucks for a proper switch.  It would have looked more impressive to the stewardesses also.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1496 on: September 16, 2015, 09:05:32 AM »
Just a general comment about this discussion here.  I have not seen anything that leads me to believe the Cooper suspect did NOT land in the Columbia River, and the ransom along with him (maybe not attached to him, though).  As more information becomes available, and we discuss and analyse the money find here, it becomes obvious that the idea he landed elsewhere is based on the supposition and conjecture of others which has NOT lead to the resolution of this mystery. 

Could the Cooper suspect have survived the jump if he landed on dry land?  Possibly.  Could the Cooper suspect have escaped, stocking footed, with all his gear, or after successfully hiding a deployed main chute, dummy reserve chute,  and a briefcase with a dummy bomb?  Extremely unlikely.  Especially considering the notoriety of the event, courtesy of the media of the day.  Everybody in the Pacific Northwest would have been looking for him.

The problem with this case is there is very little concrete information to go on.  That opens the door to all types of supposition and conjecture (see above :) ), none of which has closed the case, and much of which has lead the investigation of this case astray. 
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1497 on: September 16, 2015, 01:27:59 PM »
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Quote
. All of the ingredients of a bomb. He demonstrates the simplicity of his device saying 'all I have to do is touch these two wires together'.


That indicates a basic explosive. if Cooper had an electrical detonator stuck in the dynamite, and the wires attached to the battery with a break in one of the wires, all he would have to do is complete the circuit by connecting the wires in his hand and BOOM. (if it was real)


He said his bomb was "electronic" vs. electrical. That's a step up.


I believe detonators that require power would be considered "electronic" or electrical?

Electronic detonators would be a handheld device that wouldn't require a battery separate from the switch. they are in the switch. Cooper seems to have had a break in the circuit from the battery to the detonator. I don't see anything else needed.

He could of added a switch instead of holding the wires, so he could of been nervous doing that, or it was fake and he did the two wires for dramatic purposes? (speculation)
Using two wires instead of a proper trigger, or even a simple switch for that matter, shows the lack of technical sophistication of the Cooper suspect.  If someone actually had access to dynamite, then they would more than likely have access to the proper trigger.  A person with military demolition training wouldn't be running around with a briefcase filled with explosives and a couple of wires with bare ends flopping freely in the case.  He would have spent a couple of extra bucks for a proper switch.  It would have looked more impressive to the stewardesses also.

I don't think the bomb tells us much about Cooper, anymore than the device used by McCoy tells us much about McCoy and his background. McCoy used a fake grenade, one of those cheap surplus casings you can get at gun shows, pawn shops, surplus stores and elsewhere. Someone could say "McCoy was Military because he used a grenade" and another person could scoff and say "You can get those anywhere, and anyone who knows anything about military ordnance would be able to call McCoy's bluff." As it was, McCoy was military, but the grenade itself would have been useless to us had McCoy never been caught, since both arguments are valid in the absence of information.

Cooper needed a prop, and so he created one that he could use to frighten people. He was trying to fool twenty-something flight attendants, not a bomb expert.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1498 on: September 16, 2015, 02:04:52 PM »
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Quote
. All of the ingredients of a bomb. He demonstrates the simplicity of his device saying 'all I have to do is touch these two wires together'.


That indicates a basic explosive. if Cooper had an electrical detonator stuck in the dynamite, and the wires attached to the battery with a break in one of the wires, all he would have to do is complete the circuit by connecting the wires in his hand and BOOM. (if it was real)


He said his bomb was "electronic" vs. electrical. That's a step up.


I believe detonators that require power would be considered "electronic" or electrical?

Electronic detonators would be a handheld device that wouldn't require a battery separate from the switch. they are in the switch. Cooper seems to have had a break in the circuit from the battery to the detonator. I don't see anything else needed.

He could of added a switch instead of holding the wires, so he could of been nervous doing that, or it was fake and he did the two wires for dramatic purposes? (speculation)
Using two wires instead of a proper trigger, or even a simple switch for that matter, shows the lack of technical sophistication of the Cooper suspect.  If someone actually had access to dynamite, then they would more than likely have access to the proper trigger.  A person with military demolition training wouldn't be running around with a briefcase filled with explosives and a couple of wires with bare ends flopping freely in the case.  He would have spent a couple of extra bucks for a proper switch.  It would have looked more impressive to the stewardesses also.

I don't think the bomb tells us much about Cooper, anymore than the device used by McCoy tells us much about McCoy and his background. McCoy used a fake grenade, one of those cheap surplus casings you can get at gun shows, pawn shops, surplus stores and elsewhere. Someone could say "McCoy was Military because he used a grenade" and another person could scoff and say "You can get those anywhere, and anyone who knows anything about military ordnance would be able to call McCoy's bluff." As it was, McCoy was military, but the grenade itself would have been useless to us had McCoy never been caught, since both arguments are valid in the absence of information.

Cooper needed a prop, and so he created one that he could use to frighten people. He was trying to fool twenty-something flight attendants, not a bomb expert.

Differences:
DBC built his 'bomb' - McCoy purchased his.
DBC talked at length about the makeup of his bomb and bomb physics  - McCoy said nothing similar.
DBC showed the contents of his bomb - McCoy's grenade was unknowable.
DBC's tie shows evidence of bomb making materials - McCoy .... ?
DBC made specific military references - McCoy ?
DBC showed calm flexibility-adaptability in his handling of technical and social management issues - McCoy?
DBC was described by at least one stew as being an 'executive' (command) type.
.
.
.
 


   
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1499 on: September 16, 2015, 02:13:32 PM »
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Quote
. All of the ingredients of a bomb. He demonstrates the simplicity of his device saying 'all I have to do is touch these two wires together'.


That indicates a basic explosive. if Cooper had an electrical detonator stuck in the dynamite, and the wires attached to the battery with a break in one of the wires, all he would have to do is complete the circuit by connecting the wires in his hand and BOOM. (if it was real)


He said his bomb was "electronic" vs. electrical. That's a step up.


I believe detonators that require power would be considered "electronic" or electrical?

Electronic detonators would be a handheld device that wouldn't require a battery separate from the switch. they are in the switch. Cooper seems to have had a break in the circuit from the battery to the detonator. I don't see anything else needed.

He could of added a switch instead of holding the wires, so he could of been nervous doing that, or it was fake and he did the two wires for dramatic purposes? (speculation)
Using two wires instead of a proper trigger, or even a simple switch for that matter, shows the lack of technical sophistication of the Cooper suspect.  If someone actually had access to dynamite, then they would more than likely have access to the proper trigger.  A person with military demolition training wouldn't be running around with a briefcase filled with explosives and a couple of wires with bare ends flopping freely in the case.  He would have spent a couple of extra bucks for a proper switch.  It would have looked more impressive to the stewardesses also.

As a 'presentation' the bomb is simple, straightforward, large, with easily describable contents. Only the color of the sticks made the FBI question if it was real or not. If the color of the sticks had been of the usual type, the FBI would not have questioned if the bomb was or could be real.