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Has anybody researched the earthen damn on Lake Vancouver at 45-40.165N 122-44.650W?  It appears to control the depth of Vancouver Lake.

R99 knows quite a bit about Vancouver Lake, its history, reclamation, etc. You might do a search at DZ. We discussed it there. And of course there's the internet....

NMI, I don't see a dam at the coordinates you give.  There seems to be a paved road (and maybe an unpaved road) there but no dam.

Thanks for the info, it helps put things in perspective.  I believe the road is built on an earthen damn, which contains the valves that control the flushing channel.

I think the questions is....what are they talking about. the oscillation vs the pressure bump?

Carr believes they mistakenly used the oscillation as the jump point, but the transcripts state that's where they believed he jumped, but they turn around and state they didn't pinpoint the jump?

The flight data recorder would have this information, where is it? nobody knows??

5 minutes after the last contact is the 8:10 position, but the records state 8:12 when they the report the oscillation and possible jump point.
10 minutes after the last contact would be the 8:15 location which is the Orchards area, about 5 miles north of the Columbia.
This leaves a possible gap of over 16 nautical miles between these points. (straight line)

How can the gap be so large north, and no room for error south towards the Columbia?

Well, that is why (to remove one possible source of error) I took the test flight photos and determined the 'closure time' of the stairs. It's fast to say the least! It is so fast the time it takes for the stairs to close vs. the final slap/bump of the stairs closing the hole, is indistinguishable. For all practical purposes when he left the stairs (his wight was no longer on the stairs) if the stairs closed during the hijacking as they did during the test flight, there is no time difference between the two events. I was shocked at how fast these stairs actually swing back up after weight is off them in flight! So, as Carr suspected, we have two events: oscillations vs bump. We know what the bump was. That was Cooper leaving the stairs. It was duplicated in the test flight and noted by Anderson during the test flight.

My sense is the crew at the time did not distinguish the two events and reported them as a unified event. But nobody has assigned a specific time to when the oscillations began. Only later (during the test flight) did Anderson realise there was a difference. The problem as you state is if they report the time of onset of oscillations that is an earlier time than the bump. How much time difference is there, who knows, but it has nothing to do with the stairs lagging once weight is off of them. Weight being removed from the stairs and 'slamming shut' (bump) is coterminous for all practical purposes. They probably reported an estimate of the earlier time vs the bump time, but they could have corrected this later after the test flight data was better analyzed.

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I think the questions is....what are they talking about. the oscillation vs the pressure bump?

Carr believes they mistakenly used the oscillation as the jump point, but the transcripts state that's where they believed he jumped, but they turn around and state they didn't pinpoint the jump?

The flight data recorder would have this information, where is it? nobody knows??

5 minutes after the last contact is the 8:10 position, but the records state 8:12 when they the report the oscillation and possible jump point.
10 minutes after the last contact would be the 8:15 location which is the Orchards area, about 5 miles north of the Columbia.
This leaves a possible gap of over 16 nautical miles between these points. (straight line)

How can the gap be so large north, and no room for error south towards the Columbia?

Well, that is why (to remove one possible source of error) I took the test flight photos and determined the 'closure time' of the stairs. It's fast to say the least! It is so fast the time it takes for the stairs to close vs. the final slap/bump of the stairs closing the hole, is indistinguishable. For all practical purposes when he left the stairs (his wight was no longer on the stairs) if the stairs closed during the hijacking as they did during the test flight, there is no time difference between the two events. I was shocked at how fast these stairs actually swing back up after weight is off them in flight! So, as Carr suspected, we have two events: oscillations vs bump. We know what the bump was. That was Cooper leaving the stairs. It was duplicated in the test flight and noted by Anderson during the test flight.

My sense is the crew at the time did not distinguish the two events and reported them as a unified event. But nobody has assigned a specific time to when the oscillations began. Only later (during the test flight) did Anderson realise there was a difference. The problem as you state is if they report the time of onset of oscillations that is an earlier time than the bump. How much time difference is there, who knows, but it has nothing to do with the stairs lagging once weight is off of them. Weight being removed from the stairs and 'slamming shut' (bump) is coterminous for all practical purposes. They probably reported an estimate of the earlier time vs the bump time, but they could have corrected this later after the test flight data was better analyzed.

I agree that it is likely the same event....the wave /oscillation of closing and the bump of the shut. And if we ever did get absolute confirmation of the event(s), even a lag could have a reasonable explanation. Testing the stairs or even being thrown off of the stairs through a loss of balance.

But the main reason I responded just to agree is to tell you that you taught me a new word. I even looked it up to make sure it was a real one. Guess we're never too old, huh?

And, somebody rejects the Anderson-Rataczak? testimony in any event, ... in favor of a northern lz! Makes one wonder why Carr even bothered to come back 40 years later? Things were going so well... 

My sense is "the company" is deep in the thick of this. I hate to stoop to conspiracy, but with a northern LZ one could claim: hijacker is gone (fishes ate him), money is gone (melted or decayed), 100% loss file the claim. And everyone can sleep at night. Whereas this southern stuff is a guaranteed nightmare of complications.

This is a wonderful discussion. I've just realized that I always assumed that the pressure bump was the oscillation - that they were one and the same. Now I see that two dynamics were occurring: a pressure bump and a couple oscillations.

The oscillation, according to the flight crew from the McCoy hijacking caused a howling through out the cockpit once he was on the stairs. once they leave the stairs, the stairs bounce back up causing a rapid pressure change similar to closing the door in your house and seeing the curtains jump from the pressure change....this will register on the engineers panel...the climb rate gauge will show the difference.

I think the howling was through out the airplane....

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This is a wonderful discussion. I've just realized that I always assumed that the pressure bump was the oscillation - that they were one and the same. Now I see that two dynamics were occurring: a pressure bump and a couple oscillations.

Remember the pressure thumps I felt as jumpers exited the DC 9 ahead of me over Chanute AFB in 2006? I could have accurately counted every jumper who preceded me even if I had been blindfolded. Pressure door and stairs were removed to allow fast dump of 85 skydivers. Some kind of pressure event was occurring, perhaps a reflection from jumpers hitting the fast slipstream?  G probably has a good explanation.

377

well, it is a pressure event to be sure. Even the oscillations are a series of pressure events (pressure waves). At the end the hole gets closed. That creates a pressure pike noting a sudden pressure differential (spike) passing back through the cavity of the plane. All different forms of Bernoulli events. The test drop photos proved the suddenness of the stairs closing back shut closing the rear hole - that would definitely create a pressure event ... in any event!

BTW 377, do you think Cooper might have had a crystal radio direction finder? Something simple but effective? Something to tell him when he was getting near a major radio station? It's just a thought...
 

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This is a wonderful discussion. I've just realized that I always assumed that the pressure bump was the oscillation - that they were one and the same. Now I see that two dynamics were occurring: a pressure bump and a couple oscillations.

Remember the pressure thumps I felt as jumpers exited the DC 9 ahead of me over Chanute AFB in 2006? I could have accurately counted every jumper who preceded me even if I had been blindfolded. Pressure door and stairs were removed to allow fast dump of 85 skydivers. Some kind of pressure event was occurring, perhaps a reflection from jumpers hitting the fast slipstream?  G probably has a good explanation.

377

One more thing:

What planes in the 1970s era had a cockpit activated rear stairs - any? Could Cooper have got the idea that the rear stairs could be lower from the cockpit, from some other plane he was more familiar with?
 

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This is a wonderful discussion. I've just realized that I always assumed that the pressure bump was the oscillation - that they were one and the same. Now I see that two dynamics were occurring: a pressure bump and a couple oscillations.

Remember the pressure thumps I felt as jumpers exited the DC 9 ahead of me over Chanute AFB in 2006? I could have accurately counted every jumper who preceded me even if I had been blindfolded. Pressure door and stairs were removed to allow fast dump of 85 skydivers. Some kind of pressure event was occurring, perhaps a reflection from jumpers hitting the fast slipstream?  G probably has a good explanation.

377

One more thing:

What planes in the 1970s era had a cockpit activated rear stairs - any? Could Cooper have got the idea that the rear stairs could be lower from the cockpit, from some other plane he was more familiar with?

See this Georger:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377