Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1344908 times)

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1455 on: August 26, 2015, 04:16:22 PM »
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Mike said the "high tide line" when I asked him in 2010 or so.

Where on the high tide line? Everywhere? Where in relation to the Ingram find, or, in the digging photos we have?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 04:16:51 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1456 on: August 26, 2015, 10:11:35 PM »
This is why we need to speak with him again. to try and find out where he was during the dig etc...
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1457 on: September 12, 2015, 10:18:07 AM »
According to the newly released transcripts, Anderson claims that the Cooper suspect jumped somewhere near the Portland suburbs, before they reached the downtown area.  Anderson also says they didn't "pinpoint their exact location" at the perceived time of the jump.  This description puts the LZ in the vicinity of the Columbia River.

Why is the FBI's original landing zone so far north?

If he survived the landing, he would have had to dispose of, or carry:

-A deployed main chute
-A dummy reserve chute
-A briefcase with dummy bomb
-A large bag of money wrapped with chute cord.

That's a lot of equipment to carry, especially in stocking feet.  It would be almost impossible to hide something like this permanently in such a short amount of time.  Just thinking out load here.  Anybody have any thoughts on this?
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1458 on: September 12, 2015, 12:22:32 PM »
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According to the newly released transcripts, Anderson claims that the Cooper suspect jumped somewhere near the Portland suburbs, before they reached the downtown area.  Anderson also says they didn't "pinpoint their exact location" at the perceived time of the jump.  This description puts the LZ in the vicinity of the Columbia River.

Why is the FBI's original landing zone so far north?

If he survived the landing, he would have had to dispose of, or carry:

-A deployed main chute
-A dummy reserve chute
-A briefcase with dummy bomb
-A large bag of money wrapped with chute cord.

That's a lot of equipment to carry, especially in stocking feet.  It would be almost impossible to hide something like this permanently in such a short amount of time.  Just thinking out load here.  Anybody have any thoughts on this?

My thoughts are that you are exactly right.  If Cooper weighed 180 pounds, his weight, plus the weight of the back parachute (20+ pounds), plus the weight of the money (22+ pounds), plus anything else he tried to keep with him, would weigh at least 225 pounds.  That is a relatively high jump load to begin with.

Assuming Cooper did manage to get an open canopy, he would have had a higher than normal descent rate.  And being shoeless on a cold, dark, and wet night in the brush, means that his problems are just beginning.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1459 on: September 12, 2015, 12:33:59 PM »
Quote
Why is the FBI's original landing zone so far north?

I believe they were going by the oscillation vs the pressure bump...
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1460 on: September 12, 2015, 01:00:26 PM »
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Quote
Why is the FBI's original landing zone so far north?

I believe they were going by the oscillation vs the pressure bump...

If you take a look at the landing zone map and related paperwork released by the FBI, it appears that it was prepared by someone from NWA before the airliner even got to Reno.
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1461 on: September 12, 2015, 01:21:13 PM »
Has anybody researched the earthen damn on Lake Vancouver at 45-40.165N 122-44.650W?  It appears to control the depth of Vancouver Lake.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1462 on: September 12, 2015, 03:44:28 PM »
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This is why we need to speak with him again. to try and find out where he was during the dig etc...

As posted elsewhere, Mike ain't talking. He joined the One and Done Club last week.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1463 on: September 13, 2015, 02:16:09 AM »
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Has anybody researched the earthen damn on Lake Vancouver at 45-40.165N 122-44.650W?  It appears to control the depth of Vancouver Lake.

R99 knows quite a bit about Vancouver Lake, its history, reclamation, etc. You might do a search at DZ. We discussed it there. And of course there's the internet....
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1464 on: September 13, 2015, 10:42:47 AM »
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Has anybody researched the earthen damn on Lake Vancouver at 45-40.165N 122-44.650W?  It appears to control the depth of Vancouver Lake.

R99 knows quite a bit about Vancouver Lake, its history, reclamation, etc. You might do a search at DZ. We discussed it there. And of course there's the internet....
Its quite a coincidence that the construction (excavation) of the Vancouver Lake flushing channel  began in 1979, just three miles from where the money was found a few months later. 
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1465 on: September 13, 2015, 10:50:23 AM »
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Has anybody researched the earthen damn on Lake Vancouver at 45-40.165N 122-44.650W?  It appears to control the depth of Vancouver Lake.

R99 knows quite a bit about Vancouver Lake, its history, reclamation, etc. You might do a search at DZ. We discussed it there. And of course there's the internet....
Its quite a coincidence that the construction (excavation) of the Vancouver Lake flushing channel  began in 1979, just three miles from where the money was found a few months later.


I'm not sure of the year (forgot) but they dredged Vancouver lake as well...the island is a spoil...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 10:51:23 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1466 on: September 13, 2015, 02:06:45 PM »
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Has anybody researched the earthen damn on Lake Vancouver at 45-40.165N 122-44.650W?  It appears to control the depth of Vancouver Lake.

R99 knows quite a bit about Vancouver Lake, its history, reclamation, etc. You might do a search at DZ. We discussed it there. And of course there's the internet....
Its quite a coincidence that the construction (excavation) of the Vancouver Lake flushing channel  began in 1979, just three miles from where the money was found a few months later.

That coincidence has been pointed out before. For a number of reasons Vancouver Lake was dismissed as a possible source for the money. If I recall this correctly the main objection was the lack of a direct water route between the Lake and Tina Bar? There are a number of posts about this at DZ. Unless I am mistaken VC Lake sits very close to being right across from the Willamette-Columbia confluence and used to be regularly overflowed by the confluence during floods ??
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 02:09:35 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1467 on: September 13, 2015, 02:48:32 PM »
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Has anybody researched the earthen damn on Lake Vancouver at 45-40.165N 122-44.650W?  It appears to control the depth of Vancouver Lake.

R99 knows quite a bit about Vancouver Lake, its history, reclamation, etc. You might do a search at DZ. We discussed it there. And of course there's the internet....

NMI, I don't see a dam at the coordinates you give.  There seems to be a paved road (and maybe an unpaved road) there but no dam.

Here are some elevations to keep in mind when discussing the Portland, Vancouver, and Tina Bar areas.  The Portland International Airport is listed as being 30 feet above sea level.

The river gage is on the Vancouver side of the river and typically lists the river surface elevation at only about 5 or 6 feet above sea level.  And it is about 100 river miles to the Pacific Ocean.  That means the "downslope" to the Pacific is only about 1 foot for ever 20 miles downstream.  For comparison, the Mississippi River between Minneapolis and the Gulf of Mexico has a "downslope" of about 1 foot per mile.

Tina Bar is about 10 miles downstream from the Vancouver river gage, so its typical river surface elevation is about one-half foot lower than that at the Vancouver gage.

The point of the Flushing Channel is to move Columbia River water into Vancouver Lake.  Typically, the lake gets a large part of the rain water run off from the city of Vancouver, which contains a lot of urban pollution.  In order for the Flushing Channel to work, the river level has to be higher than the lake level (plus appropriate gates have to be opened at each end of the channel).

I have never seen a drop of water in the Flushing Channel.  It is a relatively shallow and narrow (not more than 50 feet wide) channel that is easy to overlook when driving by or over it.  The last time I saw it, it was overgrown with weeds and small bushes.  It really needed to be mowed.

The Northwest Lower River Road is built on top of a levee in the Tina Bar area.  There is about a 4 or 5 foot drop off on the east side of that road (toward Vancouver Lake).  Consequently, water that is in Vancouver Lake will drain down the Lake River and enter the Columbia River about 15 or 20 miles downstream of the Tina Bar area.  This means that anything that ends up in Vancouver Lake is going to completely bypass the Tina Bar area.

Was the construction of the Flushing Channel connected in any way to the money ending up at Tina Bar?  My guess is that it probably is not.  Some topographical maps still list the area between Caterpillar Island and the east shore of the Columbia River as a "mud flat".  Nevertheless, in the 1970 aerial photograph of the Tina Bar area, the marina is shown in that channel in full force.  And I have seen boats in that channel that probably had 4 or 5 foot drafts.  There is no information on when that channel was dredged, as it probably would have to be prior to the construction of the marina.

So like most things related to the Cooper matter, we have a lot of questions but not many meaningful answers.

     
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 02:51:50 PM by Robert99 »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1468 on: September 13, 2015, 04:31:12 PM »
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Has anybody researched the earthen damn on Lake Vancouver at 45-40.165N 122-44.650W?  It appears to control the depth of Vancouver Lake.

R99 knows quite a bit about Vancouver Lake, its history, reclamation, etc. You might do a search at DZ. We discussed it there. And of course there's the internet....
Its quite a coincidence that the construction (excavation) of the Vancouver Lake flushing channel  began in 1979, just three miles from where the money was found a few months later.

Anderson stated that approximately 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact with subject at 8:05 pm, they heard and felt an oscillation of the aircraft and commented that the hijacker could have departed causing the unusual vibration since there had been no change in flight parameters or any other external force which would account for this sudden vibration. They telephoned the company representative shortly thereafter and stated that the ‘oscillation’ which could have been the hijacker’s departure, would have occurred between 8:05 pm and their call to the company 5 or ten minutes later, the exact time being recorded in the company log. Anderson stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof.

Rataczak apparently picked up the same story and spread it later? Thats the story he gave to Carr which Carr stated on DZ.

Of course the official version is Cooper bailed further north, so there is no conceivable link between Columbia water shed and Cooper's landing place under that narrative.

Which narrative is correct?

Behind Vancouver Lake then going over behind Tina Bar is a railroad which literally connects the northern LZ with the south area of Vancouver. Is it possible Cooper made it south only to be confronted by vagrants and hobos at one of their encampments in the Vancouver Lake area ... and tossed his money into Vancouver Lake to be retrieved later, in order to escape the many curious individuals he would have encountered in this area ? Then nature took it's course with the money bag?

Anderson even defines what he means by 'suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof..." by the use of "Portland proper". He is talking about an area which is Vancouver or its northern suburbs and no further north, as seen by air in a 727 traveling at 200kts.

Evidently "the company" chose to ignore Anderson and adopted other facts they had resulting in the NWA lz map? This must have morphed into the FBI map used today.

Anderson is the only one that provides an actual physical connection between the Columbia water shed and Cooper and his money.   
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 05:20:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1469 on: September 13, 2015, 06:53:19 PM »
I think the questions is....what are they talking about. the oscillation vs the pressure bump?

Carr believes they mistakenly used the oscillation as the jump point, but the transcripts state that's where they believed he jumped, but they turn around and state they didn't pinpoint the jump?

The flight data recorder would have this information, where is it? nobody knows??

5 minutes after the last contact is the 8:10 position, but the records state 8:12 when they the report the oscillation and possible jump point.
10 minutes after the last contact would be the 8:15 location which is the Orchards area, about 5 miles north of the Columbia.
This leaves a possible gap of over 16 nautical miles between these points. (straight line)

How can the gap be so large north, and no room for error south towards the Columbia?