Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1416332 times)

Offline sailshaw

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
  • Thanked: 4 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1365 on: July 21, 2015, 12:08:11 AM »
Shutter:     My answer/question above has to do with the posts in this section about Tag# 3. Jo Webber could be trying to tell us something about the case and is better than the endless dribble we find here that goes nowhere. Jo would like to think that Duane was DB but most of us can't see him as DB.
The DB caper was well planned and something Duane had not been able to do in his own crime wave. He possibly could have been one of the "ground men".

Bob Sailshaw
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1366 on: July 21, 2015, 12:20:20 AM »
Endless dribble? that's exactly what I read on the DZ for the last couple years by the two main posters. how can Duane have a "nightmare" about leaving prints on the "aft stairs" or the description, the hair he greased back. that's just a small portion. so, how can he match all of this, but turn around and be the ground man?

Lets not forget him knowing one of the Alcatraz boys, the JFK incident, area 51, smoke jumping, the ticket nobody seen, the trip that was never proven, etc. etc.

That's dribble..


Thanks
Insulted
 

Offline 73blazer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1367 on: July 21, 2015, 07:40:13 AM »
I'm trying to really get into the flight path being way off deal and they overflew Tina bar.  Under that assumption, he most likely died on or near that river bank that night. What I have trouble getting past is, if that's the case, that's a .... somewhat populated area. It would seem something would have been found, body, briefcase, parachute...loafers... even if he eneded up in the Columbia, it seems some trace of him or his gear would have washed up elsewhere on the banks of the columbia?  Whats the general thinking of why that hasn't been the case?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 09:13:45 AM by 73blazer »
 

Offline sailshaw

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
  • Thanked: 4 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1368 on: July 21, 2015, 12:15:17 PM »
73Blazer you ask:
" It would seem something would have been found, body, briefcase, parachute...loafers... even if he eneded up in the Columbia, it seems some trace of him or his gear would have washed up elsewhere on the banks of the columbia?  Whats the general thinking of why that hasn't been the case?"

I say:   "How about he was successful in the jump and lived through it all and is still living in retirement in California at 89 years old. He figured out the "System to Beat the System" and it was well planned except for DNA which was not used to solve crimes in those days. The FBI has DNA they have not checked yet on the four letters sent to the newspapers just after Norjak.

Bob Sailshaw
 

Offline 73blazer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1369 on: July 21, 2015, 12:47:20 PM »
I'm just exploring theories. You could...be right, or not, but the control on how to prove that right or wrong, is out of our hands. (Unless you can get a letter). Same as the theory I put forth that Tina is the key, Cooper left the $$ for her on Tina bar. It would be easy for her to answer, yes he did contact me (mabey it wasn't an overt contact), or no he didn't. But she's not open to the general public coming at her constantly for 40 years with questions..and I don't really blame her...so, we're just not gonna get an answer on that, and that is that.   So...that leaves us with .. exploring theories and what WE can do to prove or disprove them.
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1370 on: July 21, 2015, 11:42:07 PM »
nd these checks continued for a very long time ...

well ... the Modify button ate my post! Oh well. WTF next can happen this week???  Never mind...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 04:10:09 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1371 on: July 24, 2015, 02:00:49 PM »
Quote
"Professor PALMER stated this clay layer in all probability, was deposited during that 1974 dredging."

This statement appears to be that Palmer really didn't know much about the layers. these are the things that bother me when they conclude something. it's more probable vs fact.

Quote
"The material deposited on the beach was spread with tractors probably over an area of 50 yards in each direction.

To rule out something, we need facts. then they use the "auger" to appear that it would rip the bills apart. this is a slow moving bit with suction. I don't think much damage would occur. the pump is the question more than the bit.

Quote
The discovery of the natural clay layers suggests that Palmer misinterpreted the clay as man-made when it fact it was a natural part of the beach stratigraphy. Palmer working with limited information could not have interpreted the clay layers as a natural feature of the shoreline. The continuous erosion of the sand since 1980 to its current level (Figs. 4,5), suggests that prior to 1974, the level of the beach was maintained by the addition of dredging sands. These sand deposits can be seen in subsequent years moving downstream with river flow along the sand bar. This further suggests that once the dredging sands were no longer replenishing the beach after 1974, natural erosion took place which eventually uncovered the Cooper Bills in 1980.

I'm not stating the dredge had anything to do with it, but it's hard to rule out when you see the words "probability & probably"
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1372 on: July 24, 2015, 02:23:08 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
"Professor PALMER stated this clay layer in all probability, was deposited during that 1974 dredging."

This statement appears to be that Palmer really didn't know much about the layers. these are the things that bother me when they conclude something. it's more probable vs fact.

Quote
"The material deposited on the beach was spread with tractors probably over an area of 50 yards in each direction.

To rule out something, we need facts. then they use the "auger" to appear that it would rip the bills apart. this is a slow moving bit with suction. I don't think much damage would occur. the pump is the question more than the bit.

Quote
The discovery of the natural clay layers suggests that Palmer misinterpreted the clay as man-made when it fact it was a natural part of the beach stratigraphy. Palmer working with limited information could not have interpreted the clay layers as a natural feature of the shoreline. The continuous erosion of the sand since 1980 to its current level (Figs. 4,5), suggests that prior to 1974, the level of the beach was maintained by the addition of dredging sands. These sand deposits can be seen in subsequent years moving downstream with river flow along the sand bar. This further suggests that once the dredging sands were no longer replenishing the beach after 1974, natural erosion took place which eventually uncovered the Cooper Bills in 1980.

I'm not stating the dredge had anything to do with it, but it's hard to rule out when you see the words "probability & probably"

If I remember correctly, Tom Kaye disagrees with Palmer as to the location where the dredging material was placed and spread with respect to the location where the money was found.  That is, the money find location was not in the area where the dredged material was spread.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1373 on: July 24, 2015, 02:44:46 PM »
Yes, he is going by the 50 yard marking, and the misidentified, or misinterpreted  layers.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 02:45:25 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1374 on: July 24, 2015, 04:31:32 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
"Professor PALMER stated this clay layer in all probability, was deposited during that 1974 dredging."

This statement appears to be that Palmer really didn't know much about the layers. these are the things that bother me when they conclude something. it's more probable vs fact.

Quote
"The material deposited on the beach was spread with tractors probably over an area of 50 yards in each direction.

To rule out something, we need facts. then they use the "auger" to appear that it would rip the bills apart. this is a slow moving bit with suction. I don't think much damage would occur. the pump is the question more than the bit.

Quote
The discovery of the natural clay layers suggests that Palmer misinterpreted the clay as man-made when it fact it was a natural part of the beach stratigraphy. Palmer working with limited information could not have interpreted the clay layers as a natural feature of the shoreline. The continuous erosion of the sand since 1980 to its current level (Figs. 4,5), suggests that prior to 1974, the level of the beach was maintained by the addition of dredging sands. These sand deposits can be seen in subsequent years moving downstream with river flow along the sand bar. This further suggests that once the dredging sands were no longer replenishing the beach after 1974, natural erosion took place which eventually uncovered the Cooper Bills in 1980.

I'm not stating the dredge had anything to do with it, but it's hard to rule out when you see the words "probability & probably"

Yes. The words "in all probability" (Palmer) and "probably spread 50 yards" (Bechly)are in the FBI summary reports written by some FBI agent. But note Kaye uses the "probably 50 yards" to basically mean '50 yards and no more' in his finding that the dredge pile and the money were so far apart that there can be no physical connection.

Tom is taking some liberty in this. Tom uses "in all probability" (Palmer) as meaning 'Palmer was unsure of the layer identification'. He then turns around and cites '50 yards' as a dead certainty and dismisses 'probably'.

More important, "in all probability" and "probably" are the FBI transcribers words, not Palmer's words or the words of Bechly the person who issued the dredging report!   But Kaye is using these words as if they are quotes from Palmer and Bechly, which they are not! These are the FBI transcriber's words !

Fact is nobody but the Fazios know how far they spread the dredging debris - their contract called for "50 yards", I was told.  Nobody knows how much the spoils migrated north after that. I do know this: the bills Tom tested lit up for certain elements which the USGS chemist I talked to thinks suggested contamination from bottom dredging sands from the bottom area where the sediments were pulled from. Manganese in particular. That was not welcome news to me frankly, because I have enough problem with how the money bag or the bundles could have become part of the bottom sediment in that area, in the first place - to be dredged up and put on any shoreline!

I also have a very difficult time thinking Palmer was wrong and screwed up?

I think R99's theory is as plausible as any theory.

If the USGS chemist is correct the bundles were contaminated by bottom sediments dredged in 1974 and that contamination could have happened later.

Those dredging spoils and their contamination migrated around after they were put on Tina Bar. The question is how much and how far, and when.
   
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 05:00:46 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1375 on: July 25, 2015, 10:17:36 AM »
Quote
I also have a very difficult time thinking Palmer was wrong and screwed up?

If they didn't spread the material that far up to the money find, Palmer can't be right. aerial photo's are needed after the spreading of the material to try and make any sense of this...

I put the two supposed 1974 photo's side by side and noticed they probably gave me the wrong year (see photo) the bottom portion doesn't fit even if the water level was different?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 10:41:10 AM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1376 on: July 25, 2015, 12:50:31 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
I also have a very difficult time thinking Palmer was wrong and screwed up?

If they didn't spread the material that far up to the money find, Palmer can't be right. aerial photo's are needed after the spreading of the material to try and make any sense of this...

I put the two supposed 1974 photo's side by side and noticed they probably gave me the wrong year (see photo) the bottom portion doesn't fit even if the water level was different?

The circles in the picture on the right side definitely agree with Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates for the money find location.  And everything is on the west side of the containment pit.
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1377 on: July 25, 2015, 12:53:50 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
I also have a very difficult time thinking Palmer was wrong and screwed up?

If they didn't spread the material that far up to the money find, Palmer can't be right. aerial photo's are needed after the spreading of the material to try and make any sense of this...

I put the two supposed 1974 photo's side by side and noticed they probably gave me the wrong year (see photo) the bottom portion doesn't fit even if the water level was different?

Here are the layers - will post one at a time due to posting limit -
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 01:07:30 PM by georger »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1378 on: July 25, 2015, 12:55:06 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
I also have a very difficult time thinking Palmer was wrong and screwed up?

If they didn't spread the material that far up to the money find, Palmer can't be right. aerial photo's are needed after the spreading of the material to try and make any sense of this...

I put the two supposed 1974 photo's side by side and noticed they probably gave me the wrong year (see photo) the bottom portion doesn't fit even if the water level was different?

The circles in the picture on the right side definitely agree with Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates for the money find location.  And everything is on the west side of the containment pit.

You can see the cross bedded layer as clear as day .... so everything below that must be the clay layer? *Note the air pockets at the bottom margin of the cross bedded layer - thats interesting.

Palmer says the clay layer is dredging spoil - Kaye says its old bed. Nobody disputes what's above it or that it is more recent, and it was in the more recent strata that the money emerged. Kaye cant argue with that!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 01:18:33 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1379 on: July 25, 2015, 12:57:54 PM »
R99, I don't follow what you are saying. the yellow pin Tom marks as the position is outside of any of the circles made? I was pointing out the date the person gave me for the 5-5-74 photo appears to be incorrect?

Georger, you can post up to 4 photo's per post....

« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 12:59:39 PM by Shutter »