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Kaye's other point is the FBI circles on the USGS photos do not reflect the actual money site which Kaye says was further north of the dredge pile. So, do the news photos agree with Kaye's location or the FBI circles?

Georger,  About 2009/2010, you and I spent about an entire year looking over maps and photographs of the Tina Bar area.  We paid a lot of attention to the small "piers" (I don't remember their exact name) that extend into the river itself and have reflectors on them to assist ships moving up and down the river.  We discussed the piers that are located on both the Oregon (west) side of the river and the Washington (east) side of the river.  And we noticed that some of the piers on the Oregon side of the river could be identified in the photographs of the agents digging at the time the money was found.

I am not claiming to speak for Tom Kaye, but recently he told me that when he, Larry Carr, Brian Ingram, and others were at Tina Bar a few years ago, that Brian could not identify the exact spot where he found the money.  Brian had not been at Tina Bar for quite a few years prior to the most recent visit, the erosion had been severe, and Brian could not identify any specific trees or other landmarks that he had used previously to pinpoint the money find location.

So Tom Kaye used photographs of the Tina Bar area, including those of the agents digging, to identify the position that he gives on his web page.  The GPS coordinates he gives, as I remember it, are estimates rather than actual point measurements.  The GPS point that Tom gives is slightly SOUTH of the NORTHERN edge of the Fazio's containment pit.  And based on your and  my looking at the charts and pictures a few years back, I think Tom Kaye gives the position of the agents digging about as accurately as it can be given today.

The FBI circles do seem to be a bit SOUTH of Tom's location.  Nevertheless, those circles are still NORTH of the SOUTHERN edge of the Fazio's containment pit.  And there is not a world of difference between the two locations.  They are just a short distance apart and both are on the WEST side of the Fazio containment pit.

Maybe Meyer Louie can correct me on this, but as I remember it during our visit to Tina Bar in July 2013, the Tina Bar regular we talked to, "Jon", more or less indicated that Tom's location was the proper one.

I think I can basically accept all of this .... which now puts the Palmer dig site and Kaye's estimated location as close to each other?

Lets say this is true. Except for the issue of spreading, that places the dredge pile far enough away as Tom says, that if Palmer dug at Tom's location, Palmer could not have found any dredging spoil layer there ? Remember, Tom says Palmer 'mis-identified' the layer, not that it wasnt there at all. If Tom is correct and spreading is not a factor, then there was no dredging spoil layer present at the money site for Palmer to find in any event  ?
 

The Ultimate Logical Conclusion on the dredging theory would be that dredging didn't have anything to do with the money find or the Cooper hijacking either.  Nevertheless, dredging was "Jon's" theory of choice as to how the money arrived at Tina Bar.

Does 'Jon' think the money was 'in' the dredging spoils then migrated north, perhaps at first during the spreading of the spoils, then migrated further during high water events just after 1974, then eroded out to be exposed in 1980?
 

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Kaye's other point is the FBI circles on the USGS photos do not reflect the actual money site which Kaye says was further north of the dredge pile. So, do the news photos agree with Kaye's location or the FBI circles?

Georger,  About 2009/2010, you and I spent about an entire year looking over maps and photographs of the Tina Bar area.  We paid a lot of attention to the small "piers" (I don't remember their exact name) that extend into the river itself and have reflectors on them to assist ships moving up and down the river.  We discussed the piers that are located on both the Oregon (west) side of the river and the Washington (east) side of the river.  And we noticed that some of the piers on the Oregon side of the river could be identified in the photographs of the agents digging at the time the money was found.

I am not claiming to speak for Tom Kaye, but recently he told me that when he, Larry Carr, Brian Ingram, and others were at Tina Bar a few years ago, that Brian could not identify the exact spot where he found the money.  Brian had not been at Tina Bar for quite a few years prior to the most recent visit, the erosion had been severe, and Brian could not identify any specific trees or other landmarks that he had used previously to pinpoint the money find location.

So Tom Kaye used photographs of the Tina Bar area, including those of the agents digging, to identify the position that he gives on his web page.  The GPS coordinates he gives, as I remember it, are estimates rather than actual point measurements.  The GPS point that Tom gives is slightly SOUTH of the NORTHERN edge of the Fazio's containment pit.  And based on your and  my looking at the charts and pictures a few years back, I think Tom Kaye gives the position of the agents digging about as accurately as it can be given today.

The FBI circles do seem to be a bit SOUTH of Tom's location.  Nevertheless, those circles are still NORTH of the SOUTHERN edge of the Fazio's containment pit.  And there is not a world of difference between the two locations.  They are just a short distance apart and both are on the WEST side of the Fazio containment pit.

Maybe Meyer Louie can correct me on this, but as I remember it during our visit to Tina Bar in July 2013, the Tina Bar regular we talked to, "Jon", more or less indicated that Tom's location was the proper one.

I think I can basically accept all of this .... which now puts the Palmer dig site and Kaye's estimated location as close to each other?

Lets say this is true. Except for the issue of spreading, that places the dredge pile far enough away as Tom says, that if Palmer dug at Tom's location, Palmer could not have found any dredging spoil layer there ? Remember, Tom says Palmer 'mis-identified' the layer, not that it wasnt there at all. If Tom is correct and spreading is not a factor, then there was no dredging spoil layer present at the money site for Palmer to find in any event  ?
 

The Ultimate Logical Conclusion on the dredging theory would be that dredging didn't have anything to do with the money find or the Cooper hijacking either.  Nevertheless, dredging was "Jon's" theory of choice as to how the money arrived at Tina Bar.

Does 'Jon' think the money was 'in' the dredging spoils then migrated north, perhaps at first during the spreading of the spoils, then migrated further during high water events just after 1974, then eroded out to be exposed in 1980?
 

I forgot to ask him.  That question slipped my mind.

Happens to me all the time!     If I am correct the Fazios thought the money came up with the tide ... was riht on the tide line ...

Why does everyone say the tide line" ? it appears to be further away from the water than people are claiming.?

The river water level was quite low at the time the money was found and the money site itself appears to be at least five feet above the water level.  Also, the daily tidal variation at Tina Bar is less than two feet.  Further, the money was found buried in the sand.  This all suggests that the money arrived there when the water level was somewhere above 10-12 feet and was covered by the sand as the flooding eased.

And if it arrived several weeks or months after the jump, the biological degradation would have been completed and the remains would not have floated downstream.  This suggests that the money didn't start downstream very far from Tina Bar and that it probably originated from an elevation several feet above the location where it was found.  This in turn suggests that the money (and Cooper) had spent quite a bit of time on solid ground and about 15 feet or more above sea level.  Only a limited amount of real estate is that high in the Tina Bar area.

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Why does everyone say the tide line" ? it appears to be further away from the water than people are claiming.?

The river water level was quite low at the time the money was found and the money site itself appears to be at least five feet above the water level.  Also, the daily tidal variation at Tina Bar is less than two feet.  Further, the money was found buried in the sand.  This all suggests that the money arrived there when the water level was somewhere above 10-12 feet and was covered by the sand as the flooding eased.

And if it arrived several weeks or months after the jump, the biological degradation would have been completed and the remains would not have floated downstream.  This suggests that the money didn't start downstream very far from Tina Bar and that it probably originated from an elevation several feet above the location where it was found.  This in turn suggests that the money (and Cooper) had spent quite a bit of time on solid ground and about 15 feet or more above sea level.  Only a limited amount of real estate is that high in the Tina Bar area.

Those are good observations as far as that theory goes - and those high areas (on a map) are

. . . . . not always obvious!

Since contour lines are probably at least at 20 feet intervals, and machine drawn in this case rather than surveyed, there probably won't be more than two lines shown from sea level at Tina Bar.  A detailed map by a professional land surveyor would be most useful, but it probably doesn't exist unless Clark County has one in its land engineering department (and assuming it has such a department).

Well, it's Saturday, I've been following this conversation the whole time...and I still say...Cooper...put the money there, by hand, deliberately,  and told Tina to go get it. Then, Tina went off the map. But, as anything in Cooperland, it's just speculation. I'm as fascinated as anyone.

Seems it would of been a lot easier for Tina to accept the money when Cooper offered it, why plant the money?

Chance response. What's a person gonna say, in the 5-10 seconds they have to respond,  when offered $$ by someone who's just hijacked the plane.

But had time for a conspiracy?

one of the problems I have is it's really not buried. the money was just under the surface, and why would Cooper risk the money not being found, or found and not reported...

I would say, planted, called/told Tina about it very shortly thereafter and told her exactly where to get it, it was designed to be found in hours/days/weeks. Probably the fall before the "find". It wasn't supposed to sit there for months. While a "popular" place for fisherman at the time, popular, is relative, a couple guys on a weekend? Or 30 guys every day? Popular, and known,  and actual use...is subjective. I would guess, it was a few people, after work or weekend, weather permitting, during season. WHich, isn't really risking it being found, for a short period of time, by regular users.

Basically, they became friends? they have phone numbers, and instead of meeting up he bury's the money for her to pickup?