Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1345057 times)

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1260 on: July 10, 2015, 05:45:43 PM »
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I've been pondering something for a bit, and thought I'd throw it out there and see if somebody has some insight.  Water saturated soil can have some strange properties.  If you've ever been to a beach and walked in loose sand at the waters edge and sank  to your ankles, or been stuck in "quicksand", you get the idea.  Could the found ransom have migrated from one level of soil to another because of buoyancy or density differences? 

Normally, in mostly dry soil, I would say "no".  But, because the area where the money was found was prone to be water saturated sand, could the sand become "loose" enough to allow lighter objects to float and heaver objects to sink?

Interesting notion, Nimi, and worthy of investigation.  Then add that the bundolas were compressed and many bills stuck together. Did they all migrate upwards from a deeper, denser depth?

I used to run a company that picked rocks and cleaned beaches. It was named Sandsifter, and the machines we used were modified potato harvesters. In that work I observed that the ground is not static, especially over time. Many things, such as rocks or bundolas, will float in soil and move upwards. I attributed this to long-term dynamics such as frost heaves, drenching rains saturating soils for short periods of time and creating a fluid mass - or a flood in the case of T-Bar.

Perhaps the bundolas were deposited by the dredge in '74 or so, then compressed over the next few years and by '79 and '80 had floated to the surface a few millimeters at a time?

My understanding of Tom Kaye's conclusions, along with those of Dr. Palmer, is that dredging didn't have anything to do with the money.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1261 on: July 11, 2015, 12:33:01 AM »
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I've been pondering something for a bit, and thought I'd throw it out there and see if somebody has some insight.  Water saturated soil can have some strange properties.  If you've ever been to a beach and walked in loose sand at the waters edge and sank  to your ankles, or been stuck in "quicksand", you get the idea.  Could the found ransom have migrated from one level of soil to another because of buoyancy or density differences? 

Normally, in mostly dry soil, I would say "no".  But, because the area where the money was found was prone to be water saturated sand, could the sand become "loose" enough to allow lighter objects to float and heaver objects to sink?

Interesting notion, Nimi, and worthy of investigation.  Then add that the bundolas were compressed and many bills stuck together. Did they all migrate upwards from a deeper, denser depth?

I used to run a company that picked rocks and cleaned beaches. It was named Sandsifter, and the machines we used were modified potato harvesters. In that work I observed that the ground is not static, especially over time. Many things, such as rocks or bundolas, will float in soil and move upwards. I attributed this to long-term dynamics such as frost heaves, drenching rains saturating soils for short periods of time and creating a fluid mass - or a flood in the case of T-Bar.

Perhaps the bundolas were deposited by the dredge in '74 or so, then compressed over the next few years and by '79 and '80 had floated to the surface a few millimeters at a time?

The area is geologically stable. Take a look at Kaye's strata cut photo. You can see decades of strata in that photo. The only period that concerns us is late 1971 to Feb 1980 (not geological time). The strata are as stable as a rock and well researched. What there is however is "cross beddding" which is the shifting and reworking of surface sands through successive water events. Palmer noted that in his report. If anything, the money bundles were exposed to surface erosion vs. floating to the top like a cork in a bog. Tina Bar is not a bog!  The money did not crawl up the beach from the waterline transported by geological events, or work its way up from a much deeper strata due to geological events. ;D

 :) 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 01:53:15 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1262 on: July 12, 2015, 05:50:57 PM »
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I've been pondering something for a bit, and thought I'd throw it out there and see if somebody has some insight.  Water saturated soil can have some strange properties.  If you've ever been to a beach and walked in loose sand at the waters edge and sank  to your ankles, or been stuck in "quicksand", you get the idea.  Could the found ransom have migrated from one level of soil to another because of buoyancy or density differences? 

Normally, in mostly dry soil, I would say "no".  But, because the area where the money was found was prone to be water saturated sand, could the sand become "loose" enough to allow lighter objects to float and heaver objects to sink?

Interesting notion, Nimi, and worthy of investigation.  Then add that the bundolas were compressed and many bills stuck together. Did they all migrate upwards from a deeper, denser depth?

I used to run a company that picked rocks and cleaned beaches. It was named Sandsifter, and the machines we used were modified potato harvesters. In that work I observed that the ground is not static, especially over time. Many things, such as rocks or bundolas, will float in soil and move upwards. I attributed this to long-term dynamics such as frost heaves, drenching rains saturating soils for short periods of time and creating a fluid mass - or a flood in the case of T-Bar.

Perhaps the bundolas were deposited by the dredge in '74 or so, then compressed over the next few years and by '79 and '80 had floated to the surface a few millimeters at a time?

My understanding of Tom Kaye's conclusions, along with those of Dr. Palmer, is that dredging didn't have anything to do with the money.

Reading Tom's website, his contention the dredging had 'nothing to with the money' (find) is because the two sites are too far apart physically. Palmer of course says: 'the money was found (a considerable distance above' the dredging spoils). If Tom is right, then Palmer missed the fact that the two locations are significantly different, ie. separated by a distance which Tom says removes any possibility of a physical association -

Palmer was dumb. Kaye is smart! Kaye invented the modern paint gun and the Shoebox pump! You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  Palmer was too dumb to invent - anything - and he read the Tina Bar situation wildly wrong, according to Mr. Tom Kotsiopoulos (I use Kaye as a business name)!  ;) ;) ;)

As to the other poster's idea of the money working its way to the surface: while the area is geologically stable with no known special geophysics at play, and since according to  Kotsiopoulos-Kaye the money location and dredging northmost pile are not physically connected sites, dumping wet dredging spoils on a site must soften and degrade the material where such piles are dumped. But, since Tom  Kotsiopoulos-Kaye is smart and Dr. Palmer was dumb we need not consider this further, uber alles!  >:(     
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 05:56:14 PM by georger »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1263 on: July 13, 2015, 08:52:03 AM »
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The strata are as stable as a rock and well researched. What there is however is "cross beddding" which is the shifting and reworking of surface sands through successive water events.  :)

The "cross bedding" indicates the bar's sand is anything but stable.  When sandy soil becomes saturated with water, it becomes fluid like and behaves much differently than dry sandy soil:


"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1264 on: July 13, 2015, 04:41:05 PM »
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The strata are as stable as a rock and well researched. What there is however is "cross beddding" which is the shifting and reworking of surface sands through successive water events.  :)

The "cross bedding" indicates the bar's sand is anything but stable.  When sandy soil becomes saturated with water, it becomes fluid like and behaves much differently than dry sandy soil:


what has this got to do with Tina Bar and the Cooper money find ...?
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1265 on: July 13, 2015, 04:42:55 PM »
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The strata are as stable as a rock and well researched. What there is however is "cross beddding" which is the shifting and reworking of surface sands through successive water events.  :)

The "cross bedding" indicates the bar's sand is anything but stable.  When sandy soil becomes saturated with water, it becomes fluid like and behaves much differently than dry sandy soil:


BTW the attachment device and the MODIFY option are not working here.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1266 on: July 13, 2015, 08:16:13 PM »
checking modify....seems to be working?


Checking attachments....


Update....both seem to be working? anyone else having any issues with attachments, or modifying a post?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 08:23:11 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1267 on: July 13, 2015, 11:31:21 PM »
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checking modify....seems to be working?


Checking attachments....


Update....both seem to be working? anyone else having any issues with attachments, or modifying a post?


test
modify
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1268 on: July 13, 2015, 11:32:19 PM »
Working for you? I didn't see any problems...could of been a glitch.


modify test......
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 11:33:03 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1269 on: July 13, 2015, 11:41:15 PM »
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Working for you? I didn't see any problems...could of been a glitch.


modify test......

post clicky not working for any purpose now - - - will come back later too many other problems going on elsewhere... if this posts

now working ???


seems to be all working now - thanks - later.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 11:42:27 PM by georger »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1270 on: July 14, 2015, 10:24:11 AM »
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The strata are as stable as a rock and well researched. What there is however is "cross beddding" which is the shifting and reworking of surface sands through successive water events.  :)

The "cross bedding" indicates the bar's sand is anything but stable.  When sandy soil becomes saturated with water, it becomes fluid like and behaves much differently than dry sandy soil:


what has this got to do with Tina Bar and the Cooper money find ...?
It's just a demonstration of how water saturated sand behaves differently than dry sand.  If the bar's sand is saturated by flooding, tides,  rainfall, high water table, etc., is it possible for certain layers to co-mingle and objects of varying density to ascend or descend through those layers?
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1271 on: July 14, 2015, 09:03:31 PM »
I know it's been beat to death, but I find it troubling with the amount on the spoil vs the amount spread, and different people claiming the sand is there, and the the sand wasn't that far up the beach.....sounds like a Blevins theory changing all the time  :D
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1272 on: July 15, 2015, 12:02:06 AM »
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The strata are as stable as a rock and well researched. What there is however is "cross beddding" which is the shifting and reworking of surface sands through successive water events.  :)

The "cross bedding" indicates the bar's sand is anything but stable.  When sandy soil becomes saturated with water, it becomes fluid like and behaves much differently than dry sandy soil:


what has this got to do with Tina Bar and the Cooper money find ...?
It's just a demonstration of how water saturated sand behaves differently than dry sand.  If the bar's sand is saturated by flooding, tides,  rainfall, high water table, etc., is it possible for certain layers to co-mingle and objects of varying density to ascend or descend through those layers?

My opinion is, and its just my opinion, 'yes' but not to the degree you think. You speakof the sand being saturated by water ... well we have posted the 'watering' periods many times. (water levels). Go back and review those periods. What periods of 'saturation' are you referring to - when? What is the source of the ground vibration?

The one known constant at Tina Bar is surface erosion from wind and rain.
 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 12:07:23 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1273 on: July 15, 2015, 12:11:12 AM »
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I know it's been beat to death, but I find it troubling with the amount on the spoil vs the amount spread, and different people claiming the sand is there, and the the sand wasn't that far up the beach.....sounds like a Blevins theory changing all the time  :D

I find it difficult to believe Palmer and the FBI guys had the money location wrong, relative to the dredge pile photos, whereas Kaye has it right. But Kaye has seen clear FBI photos of the site nobody else has seen. Something doesn't add up -
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1274 on: July 15, 2015, 12:16:24 AM »
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I know it's been beat to death, but I find it troubling with the amount on the spoil vs the amount spread, and different people claiming the sand is there, and the the sand wasn't that far up the beach.....sounds like a Blevins theory changing all the time  :D

I find it difficult to believe Palmer and the FBI guys had the money location wrong, relative to the dredge pile photos, whereas Kaye has it right. But Kaye has seen clear FBI photos of the site nobody else has seen. Something doesn't add up -


It's not the location being wrong. it's how they conclude the spreading of the material. if we believe the sand wasn't applied where the money was found. how can Palmer identify the layer?