Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1433349 times)

Shutter · « **Reply #1200 on:** May 16, 2015, 04:54:39 PM »

I can't post the url, it turns it into video. just click on the You Tube logo on the bottom right of the video, and it will take you to the url.

georger · « **Reply #1201 on:** May 16, 2015, 05:06:34 PM »

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this is part one of the first video....I'll post them in the video vault, and on the tina bar page of the website....

post the url for these

this is superb material! I wish we had had this in 2008!

He is the first person ever to try and nail down currents and winds in this area. ! He mentions old trees still standing. etc etc etc! He knows this area very well. Where was he in 2009 and why wasn't he with Tom and Ingram and Carr in 2009?

He definately has a different story about the Ingrams and the money find - after talking to the Ingrams?

ok the url I get is [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkEip81FRIE] ... as it turns out I already have some maps on his eddy theory I did back at DZ and will post those later tonight when I have time.

Shutter · « **Reply #1202 on:** May 16, 2015, 05:17:40 PM »

It appears that most of his older videos are gone. here is where they were...

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Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #1203 on:** May 16, 2015, 05:18:36 PM »

Yo, guys, I don't know where Grey Cop is walking on the Columbia, but it's not T-Bar. The spot where the money was found is now a steep beach. The beach pictured in the video is very tapered, and I suspect it's Caterpillar Island, and upstream from T-Bar.

As for the dredge spoils hill, I've never seen dredge spoils from the river, or situated so close to the river. The piles I observed I had to see from the road, and are considerably upstream from T-Bar AND inland, perhaps hundreds of feet from the river bank.

When you are at T-Bar, the noticeable physical dimensions that are obvious are the 3-4 foot drop-off at the top of the riverbank, the long contiguous beach strand that goes on for hundreds of yards in both directions, and the surrounding landmarks of the Fazio ranch, ie: fencing, roof tops, etc. None of that is in Paul's video.

If he's not on CI, he might be further upstream at Frenchman's Bar, where the County Park has public access.

georger · « **Reply #1204 on:** May 16, 2015, 05:21:12 PM »

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Yo, guys, I don't know where Grey Cop is walking on the Columbia, but it's not T-Bar. The spot where the money was found is now a steep beach. The beach pictured in the video is very tapered, and I suspect it's Caterpillar Island, and upstream from T-Bar.

As for the dredge spoils hill, I've never seen dredge spoils from the river, or situated so close to the river. The piles I observed I had to see from the road, and are considerably upstream from T-Bar AND inland, perhaps hundreds of feet from the river bank.

When you are at T-Bar, the noticeable physical dimensions that are obvious are the 3-4 foot drop-off at the top of the riverbank, the long contiguous beach strand that goes on for hundreds of yards in both directions, and the surrounding landmarks of the Fazio ranch, ie: fencing, roof tops, etc. None of that is in Paul's video.

If he's not on CI, he might be further upstream at Frenchman's Bar, where the County Park has public access.

we know all of that.

The item of interest is his narrative about currents, winds, and physical facts of the whole area as may relate to the Ingram find. His videos show this area in detail never presented before by anyone and his claims about currents, eddies, and the like may be correct ... he even points to trees behind the Fazio property which were probably standing in 1971! All of that is brand new and never presented before by anyone.

His belief it was KC, who landed in the Lewis River, has claims about the Ingrams and all of that are another matter.

Shutter · « **Reply #1205 on:** May 16, 2015, 05:52:22 PM »

I've been looking on Google off and on since I posted the video and can't find the location he says he's in. I have my doubts about him using a kayak to approach the beach as well. he's a pretty big guy...I don't think he was on Caterpillar either...

georger · « **Reply #1206 on:** May 17, 2015, 01:16:11 AM »

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I've been looking on Google off and on since I posted the video and can't find the location he says he's in. I have my doubts about him using a kayak to approach the beach as well. he's a pretty big guy...I don't think he was on Caterpillar either...

1. His ride along River Rd , Catepillar Isle and the Fazio property is much longer than I expected.

2. On River Road he slows and points to an entrance saying that is the entrace to Tina Bar the Ingrams would have taken .... can that be right? My photo #3 is the entrance he showed (I think). I thought the entrance to Tina Bar was at the gate shown in Photo #2? What entrance to Tina Bar did the public take, like those shown in Photo #1 ?

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #1207 on:** May 17, 2015, 03:05:56 AM »

To get to T-Bar, you have to go just about to the end of Lower River Rd. Then enter the Fazio's property. You have to proceed past their office buildings, and then take a big "S" road past the family house, and then past the cows barns and pens out to the river. The track/road comes right to the gate in pix#2. I parked right in front of the gate.

There is no other way for anyone to get to T-Bar, except by water or walking the beach.

As for wash-ups, when I was at T-Bar I saw no debris. Nothing on the strand, and nothing at the high tide line. As for some funky river gyre that traps debris at T-Bar, I have no personal evidence of that whatsoever. Nor do I see any washed-up debris in CS pix, or anybody else's.

Yes, the ride to the entrance to the Fazios is endless. Lower River Road just keeps going on and on. LR Rd. used to follow the Columbia downstream to the Lewis River confluence, but too much of the riverbank has washed out, so LR Rd ends about a half mile past the Fazios.

Robert99 · « **Reply #1208 on:** May 17, 2015, 02:26:51 PM »

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To get to T-Bar, you have to go just about to the end of Lower River Rd. Then enter the Fazio's property. You have to proceed past their office buildings, and then take a big "S" road past the family house, and then past the cows barns and pens out to the river. The track/road comes right to the gate in pix#2. I parked right in front of the gate.

There is no other way for anyone to get to T-Bar, except by water or walking the beach.

As for wash-ups, when I was at T-Bar I saw no debris. Nothing on the strand, and nothing at the high tide line. As for some funky river gyre that traps debris at T-Bar, I have no personal evidence of that whatsoever. Nor do I see any washed-up debris in CS pix, or anybody else's.

Yes, the ride to the entrance to the Fazios is endless. Lower River Road just keeps going on and on. LR Rd. used to follow the Columbia downstream to the Lewis River confluence, but too much of the riverbank has washed out, so LR Rd ends about a half mile past the Fazios.

As Bruce correctly states, picture #2 is of the entrance to Tina Bar as it is reached through the Fazio's property itself from the NW Lower River Road. But I think there is a second entrance just south of the Fazio's property that leads to the beach and then along the beach to Tina Bar. And I think it was that entrance that the Ingram family used.

When Meyer Louie and I paid a visit to Tina Bar in July 2013, there were some fishermen there that apparently arrived by the beach route since the only vehicles there were Meyer's truck and my car which we parked at the gate shown in picture #2. It should be noted that permission to cross the Fazio's property should be obtained from their office.

Picture #2 also shows the embankment for the dairy containment pond. The containment pond's western edge is less than five feet to the right of the trees shown in the foreground. Also, "Jon" told Meyer and myself that the worst flooding he had seen in his 50 years there was about four or five feet from the top of that embankment. The river water never made it into the pond and nothing drained from the pond into the river according to Jon.

In the video's, I did not recognize a single feature shown along the beach. That is, nothing resembled Tina Bar as it exists today. Compare the videos with what you can see of the beach in picture #2.

Also in the video's, the drive along NW Lower River Road showed a lot less vegetation than existed in 2013 but they showed about the same amount of vegetation that existed during another visit I made there in November 2009. For instance, in 2013 the Flushing Channel between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake could have used a good mowing (to quote a famous quip that Will Rogers made about a lake here in Arizona).

georger · « **Reply #1209 on:** May 17, 2015, 02:44:55 PM »

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To get to T-Bar, you have to go just about to the end of Lower River Rd. Then enter the Fazio's property. You have to proceed past their office buildings, and then take a big "S" road past the family house, and then past the cows barns and pens out to the river. The track/road comes right to the gate in pix#2. I parked right in front of the gate.

There is no other way for anyone to get to T-Bar, except by water or walking the beach.

As for wash-ups, when I was at T-Bar I saw no debris. Nothing on the strand, and nothing at the high tide line. As for some funky river gyre that traps debris at T-Bar, I have no personal evidence of that whatsoever. Nor do I see any washed-up debris in CS pix, or anybody else's.

Yes, the ride to the entrance to the Fazios is endless. Lower River Road just keeps going on and on. LR Rd. used to follow the Columbia downstream to the Lewis River confluence, but too much of the riverbank has washed out, so LR Rd ends about a half mile past the Fazios.

As Bruce correctly states, picture #2 is of the entrance to Tina Bar as it is reached through the Fazio's property itself from the NW Lower River Road. But I think there is a second entrance just south of the Fazio's property that leads to the beach and then along the beach to Tina Bar. And I think it was that entrance that the Ingram family used.

When Meyer Louie and I paid a visit to Tina Bar in July 2013, there were some fishermen there that apparently arrived by the beach route since the only vehicles there were Meyer's truck and my car which we parked at the gate shown in picture #2. It should be noted that permission to cross the Fazio's property should be obtained from their office.

Picture #2 also shows the embankment for the dairy containment pond. The containment pond's western edge is less than five feet to the right of the trees shown in the foreground. Also, "Jon" told Meyer and myself that the worst flooding he had seen in his 50 years there was about four or five feet from the top of that embankment. The river water never made it into the pond and nothing drained from the pond into the river according to Jon.

In the video's, I did not recognize a single feature shown along the beach. That is, nothing resembled Tina Bar as it exists today. Compare the videos with what you can see of the beach in picture #2.

Also in the video's, the drive along NW Lower River Road showed a lot less vegetation than existed in 2013 but they showed about the same amount of vegetation that existed during another visit I made there in November 2009. For instance, in 2013 the Flushing Channel between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake could have used a good mowing (to quote a famous quip that Will Rogers made about a lake here in Arizona).

In "DB Cooper CASE SOLVED 6-13-13 TINA BAR Lower river rd PART 2" Paul shows lots of debris on a sandbar.

Where is he at if not at Tina Bar/Fazio property!?

Is he on the Columbia River or the fucking Yanktzee or Mekong; and where on the Columbia at what time of year is he ?

I take it based on first hand observation you disagree significant debris washes up on Tina Bar, as per Paul's statement in his videos?

Anyone else with firsthand observational experience is free to chime in here _ Tom Kaye? Brian Ingram? anyone else?

Are there any other Hydrologists in the house that can shed light on this mystery? Aamazon? Black Widow? Or Kim jung Un or Eel?

Shutter · « **Reply #1210 on:** May 17, 2015, 03:06:54 PM »

This appears to be a point to look for to find out where he is...

Robert99 · « **Reply #1211 on:** May 17, 2015, 03:41:53 PM »

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To get to T-Bar, you have to go just about to the end of Lower River Rd. Then enter the Fazio's property. You have to proceed past their office buildings, and then take a big "S" road past the family house, and then past the cows barns and pens out to the river. The track/road comes right to the gate in pix#2. I parked right in front of the gate.

There is no other way for anyone to get to T-Bar, except by water or walking the beach.

As for wash-ups, when I was at T-Bar I saw no debris. Nothing on the strand, and nothing at the high tide line. As for some funky river gyre that traps debris at T-Bar, I have no personal evidence of that whatsoever. Nor do I see any washed-up debris in CS pix, or anybody else's.

Yes, the ride to the entrance to the Fazios is endless. Lower River Road just keeps going on and on. LR Rd. used to follow the Columbia downstream to the Lewis River confluence, but too much of the riverbank has washed out, so LR Rd ends about a half mile past the Fazios.

As Bruce correctly states, picture #2 is of the entrance to Tina Bar as it is reached through the Fazio's property itself from the NW Lower River Road. But I think there is a second entrance just south of the Fazio's property that leads to the beach and then along the beach to Tina Bar. And I think it was that entrance that the Ingram family used.

When Meyer Louie and I paid a visit to Tina Bar in July 2013, there were some fishermen there that apparently arrived by the beach route since the only vehicles there were Meyer's truck and my car which we parked at the gate shown in picture #2. It should be noted that permission to cross the Fazio's property should be obtained from their office.

Picture #2 also shows the embankment for the dairy containment pond. The containment pond's western edge is less than five feet to the right of the trees shown in the foreground. Also, "Jon" told Meyer and myself that the worst flooding he had seen in his 50 years there was about four or five feet from the top of that embankment. The river water never made it into the pond and nothing drained from the pond into the river according to Jon.

In the video's, I did not recognize a single feature shown along the beach. That is, nothing resembled Tina Bar as it exists today. Compare the videos with what you can see of the beach in picture #2.

Also in the video's, the drive along NW Lower River Road showed a lot less vegetation than existed in 2013 but they showed about the same amount of vegetation that existed during another visit I made there in November 2009. For instance, in 2013 the Flushing Channel between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake could have used a good mowing (to quote a famous quip that Will Rogers made about a lake here in Arizona).

In "DB Cooper CASE SOLVED 6-13-13 TINA BAR Lower river rd PART 2" Paul shows lots of debris on a sandbar.

Where is he at if not at Tina Bar/Fazio property!?

Is he on the Columbia River or the fucking Yanktzee or Mekong; and where on the Columbia at what time of year is he ?

I take it based on first hand observation you disagree significant debris washes up on Tina Bar, as per Paul's statement in his videos?

Anyone else with firsthand observational experience is free to chime in here _ Tom Kaye? Brian Ingram? anyone else?

Are there any other Hydrologists in the house that can shed light on this mystery? Aamazon? Black Widow? Or Kim jung Un or Eel?

As picture #2 quoted above shows, the river bank at Tina Bar, as it exists today, is STEEP with only a narrow sandy beach area. The money find location is out INTO the river from the present water line and several feet ABOVE the present water level.

Paul's pictures show a sloping beach that resembles the beach shown in the FBI photographs from the activities at the Tina Bar money find location in 1980. But that beach is long gone due to the severe erosion at Tina Bar. And any washed up debris today is very minor.

I think Shutter has got the right idea when he suggests that the beaches shown in the videos are the western side of Caterpillar Island or the sand bars just north of CI and adjacent to the southern end of the Fazio property.

georger · « **Reply #1212 on:** May 17, 2015, 04:15:51 PM »

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To get to T-Bar, you have to go just about to the end of Lower River Rd. Then enter the Fazio's property. You have to proceed past their office buildings, and then take a big "S" road past the family house, and then past the cows barns and pens out to the river. The track/road comes right to the gate in pix#2. I parked right in front of the gate.

There is no other way for anyone to get to T-Bar, except by water or walking the beach.

As for wash-ups, when I was at T-Bar I saw no debris. Nothing on the strand, and nothing at the high tide line. As for some funky river gyre that traps debris at T-Bar, I have no personal evidence of that whatsoever. Nor do I see any washed-up debris in CS pix, or anybody else's.

Yes, the ride to the entrance to the Fazios is endless. Lower River Road just keeps going on and on. LR Rd. used to follow the Columbia downstream to the Lewis River confluence, but too much of the riverbank has washed out, so LR Rd ends about a half mile past the Fazios.

As Bruce correctly states, picture #2 is of the entrance to Tina Bar as it is reached through the Fazio's property itself from the NW Lower River Road. But I think there is a second entrance just south of the Fazio's property that leads to the beach and then along the beach to Tina Bar. And I think it was that entrance that the Ingram family used.

When Meyer Louie and I paid a visit to Tina Bar in July 2013, there were some fishermen there that apparently arrived by the beach route since the only vehicles there were Meyer's truck and my car which we parked at the gate shown in picture #2. It should be noted that permission to cross the Fazio's property should be obtained from their office.

Picture #2 also shows the embankment for the dairy containment pond. The containment pond's western edge is less than five feet to the right of the trees shown in the foreground. Also, "Jon" told Meyer and myself that the worst flooding he had seen in his 50 years there was about four or five feet from the top of that embankment. The river water never made it into the pond and nothing drained from the pond into the river according to Jon.

In the video's, I did not recognize a single feature shown along the beach. That is, nothing resembled Tina Bar as it exists today. Compare the videos with what you can see of the beach in picture #2.

Also in the video's, the drive along NW Lower River Road showed a lot less vegetation than existed in 2013 but they showed about the same amount of vegetation that existed during another visit I made there in November 2009. For instance, in 2013 the Flushing Channel between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake could have used a good mowing (to quote a famous quip that Will Rogers made about a lake here in Arizona).

In "DB Cooper CASE SOLVED 6-13-13 TINA BAR Lower river rd PART 2" Paul shows lots of debris on a sandbar.

Where is he at if not at Tina Bar/Fazio property!?

Is he on the Columbia River or the fucking Yanktzee or Mekong; and where on the Columbia at what time of year is he ?

I take it based on first hand observation you disagree significant debris washes up on Tina Bar, as per Paul's statement in his videos?

Anyone else with firsthand observational experience is free to chime in here _ Tom Kaye? Brian Ingram? anyone else?

Are there any other Hydrologists in the house that can shed light on this mystery? Aamazon? Black Widow? Or Kim jung Un or Eel?

As picture #2 quoted above shows, the river bank at Tina Bar, as it exists today, is STEEP with only a narrow sandy beach area. The money find location is out INTO the river from the present water line and several feet ABOVE the present water level.

Paul's pictures show a sloping beach that resembles the beach shown in the FBI photographs from the activities at the Tina Bar money find location in 1980. But that beach is long gone due to the severe erosion at Tina Bar. And any washed up debris today is very minor.

I think Shutter has got the right idea when he suggests that the beaches shown in the videos are the western side of Caterpillar Island or the sand bars just north of CI and adjacent to the southern end of the Fazio property.

We all know the old Tina Bar beach is long gone. That is common knowledge and I don't know why Bruce keeps bringing it up!

The issue for me is DEBRIS shown in Paul's videos! That debris is somewhere. If it is debris on the shoreline of Caterpillar Island or on the southern end of the Fazio property it is still debris! It is debris associated with the area of where Tina Bar was! But it is still debris washed in by some set of circumstances in the area of where Tina's Bar was. I guess Bruce just just not get it!

Now, if Bruce says there is no debris at all and Paul's videos are a fake and were taken some place in Idaho _ that is what we want to know! Otherwise it is debris washed up somewhere in the vicinity of the Fazio property and the old Tina Bar? Because the choices are: arrived by natural means ie. washed in vs. plant! And if the money was conveyed by natural means then we need to know how that can and does happen?

Paul Givet (sp?) is not the only person who has contended T_Bar is a natural collection point. I want to know (a) is that true, and (b) how does that happen if it is a fact?

DO YOU GET IT BRUCE?

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #1213 on:** May 17, 2015, 04:20:14 PM »

When I was at T-Bar and spoke at length with the Fazio brothers, Al and Richard, they never mentioned a second entrance to the beach area - only the gated one that Al escorted me to. He said that they used to have a jar at the gate for people to make a contribution - 25 cents in 1971. Al said they stopped the practice shortly after the money find due to the increasing number of people misusing the beach, littering, drugs, etc. Too much hassle and liability. But before hand, the beach had unlimited access, and was well-known to locals as a place to go for free, or cheap at two-bits.

As a result, T-Bar was used frequently, mostly by fishermen.

Apparently there are multiple access points to the strand. I met a fisherman on the beach north of the Fazios and I understood him to say that he was on his land. So presumably he had his own access, parking, etc.

As far as I know, I am the only Coop guy to go swimming at T-Bar, as it was 105 degrees when I was there. Water was delightful, but the current was amazingly strong. Scary, even. Very bizarre to be swimming and see a freighter go by. At the Frenchman's Bar County Park, thousands of folks go swimming in the Columbia, and the lifeguards patrol the swimming area on jet skis. Interesting.

Lastly, I have no idea where Paul was walking and filming. But it was Columbia-ish.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #1214 on:** May 17, 2015, 04:37:19 PM »

Georger, before I moved to Washington I was a commercial beachcleaner in New York. Over an eight-year period I cleaned a lot of debris off of beaches, and here is my humble opinion about Paul and his detritus.

I think the primary dynamic for debris wash up is the contour of the beach. I think the steeper the beach gets the less debris will be present. The currents simply wash stuff away.

In Paul's video, the strand is certainly very gentle. Further, the river does not appear to be too deep in the immediate areas just beyond the shoreline, and I saw a couple of tree stumps - root ball-types of wash-up - that were just sitting in the water. Also, the currents did not appear too strong in Paul's video. These are not the conditions of T-Bar.

But the whole scene had a feel for the Lower River Rd area of the Columbia, so I figure Paul was close to T-Bar, but still some distance away from the actual money-find spot.

Simply, T-Bar is NOT a junk magnet. But someplace else is, and where that is remains unknown. Paul could have been walking along the lower portions of the Lewis River at the confluence with the Columbia for all I know.

Lastly, after reconstructing the actual conditions at T-Bar as they existed in the 1978-1980 era, with a more gentle slope than now, I consider T-Bar as an unlikely place to accumulate wash-up before the money find. T-Bar is in the middle of a long run of unchanging beach contours.

Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1433349 times)

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Robert99

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Robert99

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Tina Bar Money Find