The money find doesn't have to have Cooper around that area. the money packed together could have been from being in the bag for extended amounts of time. the bills were in the order they were given. who says Cooper did die. I thinks it's highly possible, but it's also possible the money separated from him. a flood happened not to far behind the money being found. as mentioned before it doesn't make sense to put the money in a spot such Tena Bar in my opinion. I just don't see the logic in planting it on the beach. why not really screw with the FBI and plant it somewhere around Reno?




Brian is a member here, but has only made one post at the start of this forum back in February. I would love to hear more from him. I'm going to try and reach him to see if he will continue to comment about what he believes. I was pretty honored to see he joined. it's my understanding he has never done that prior to registering here. I would also like to get Tom Kaye back in the loop.

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"There is indeed plenty of water down there. Personally, and take into account I've never done a jump in my life, I'd be happier with a chute I could steer. Particularly when all that water is darn cold in late November."

I did a bungee jump from 270 feet for a radio station. does that count 

The video shows a lot of water around there area more likely he jumped from, perhaps even further south. back at the original jump area the odds were drastically lower. if the flight path is off just a couple miles, it's very possible to explain the money. I'm not stating anything as fact, but it certainly opens doors doesn't it? times, and technology were a lot different than today, but then again planes are vanishing without a trace even with advanced technology. human error is also another factor to look at while they were calculating things. then you have missing parts on the transcripts. it's a WTF is really going on here moment. 

I also believe if Cooper wanted to be known to make it the best way to do that is what others have done in the past. that's sending something to the FBI taunting them. why put it in an area where it could have never been found, or taken, and never seen again? a whole different story surrounds what happened once the money was found. it wasn't just turned over to the FBI.

When I first heard about this case my initial thought was Cooper had dropped the money bag during his descent and the money had spilled loose from the bag on its way to the ground. It makes a certain amount of sense when you consider how he jerry-rigged things together with the strings from the surplus parachute - far from ideal.

But the mainstream view has been that Cooper didn't jump anywhere near Tena Bar, and even if he had, how could the 3 bundles of money have been buried so close to each other? Not to mention the absence of Cooper himself, his parachute, briefcase and the lion-share of the remainder of the loot.

The Ingrams said once they'd found the money they kept digging for more - as you would - so it makes me a little wary of the accuracy of their account of exactly where they found the money and how it was arranged. I realize Brian was included in some of the follow-up work decades later, but how much would an 8 year old remember?

I'm aware the Ingrams tried to salvage the money with an obvious view for personal use.

Several comments -

A lot of debris (from all over) flows up onto Tina Bar. Some of it is aggregated together having been at other locations then freed, and flows on to be deposited elsewhere at places like Tina Bar. This debris is further distributed on (and off Tina Bar) once it has arrived, not just by lateral flow events but by tidal actions. I believe a slight pressure differential between the higher pressure zone of the main channel vrs the wider area along and above Catapillar island, favors the gather of debris on the righthand side of the channel which then can be swept up onto the bar, during high water events. See a Google map of the area which includes Tina Bar.

Second, there was a good discussion of the Ingram Tina Bar money find at DZ. See also pages 126/127 of the current thread in which Snowmman weighed in on the money question.

Third, I am still not convinced the money at Tina Bar was not related to the dredging events in 1974. The money bundles were in fact found just downstream of the north-most dredging pile which had been spread out. That could be a coincidence or it could be something stronger. Most people argue that the bundles could not have passed through the dredging pipe auger without being shredded (into fine pieces). Other people argue differently and cite specific examples. I am still not convinced there isn't an association because of the close proximity of the find to the north dredging pile which was spread out and then eroded further during high water events between 1974-80.
       

Have you seen this article 18c? a lot of people write this one off as well, but it throws a big wrench into the whole story.....

Hominid, R99, and I are well acquainted with Dawson. I posted on Dawson at DZ years ago. Snowmman was the first to find that article, and posted about it on DZ. Personnel at McChord worked with the FBI and NWA to conduct the sled test following the hijacking. These were people separate from Dawson's unit. I think it's safe to say Hominid does not buy Dawson's account. I had extensive conversations with Ferguson and several of Dawson's personal friends but they were not able to expand on Dawson's account. It was pure chance that caused Adele to write her article: she is a long time political-legislative reporter in Washington, Dawson was in the Legislature, Adele met with Dawson to explore legislative matters and by chance his former history at McChord came up which lead to him explaining his involvement in the Cooper case on the evening of 11-24-71 at McChord.

I was never able to find anyone from Dawson's unit to talk to, who might be able to expound on Dawson's account.
 
[edit] For those who remember, Farflung showed up at DZ one day and out of the blue begins talking about 'construction on Hayden Island'  as a possible source of the money at Tina Bar. I almost chocked! I was sure in the next sentence he was going to mention Dawson. But he didn't! I came to DZ for a week after that expecting him to name Dawson as the source of his idea - he never mentioned Dawson. Several people asked Farf who or what the source of his idea was ... he just said he had been searching .... never mentioned Dawson. Of course we all surmise Farf had an extensive military (Air Force) history. But he never mentioned Dawson!  Farf's vagueness has bugged me to this day. Hey Farf! Didn't your idea come from Dawson? Tell us about your association with Dawson, if there was one?  (Some things remain an eternal mystery).       

^ Very informative and hard to argue against.

One question: What does he mean by were the pay phone records at PDX airport from the afternoon of 11/24/71 analyzed?

Analyzed in what way?

Verified??

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^ Very informative and hard to argue against.

One question: What does he mean by were the pay phone records at PDX airport from the afternoon of 11/24/71 analyzed?

Analyzed in what way?

Verified??

My guess would be to check the records and see if Cooper possibly called someone. I could only imagine how many phone lines/pay phones were in the airport in 1971

Funny! Yes that's what Snow means. Snow had the habit of hanging brand new ideas-topics on to his posts, midway, at end, wherever. He means 'did they search the phone records of that pay phone at Seatac' ............. while also conducting a repeat 727 test ...................... while recovering money from T_Bar .......................... while dancing to
the HokeyPokey!

They all fit together .... in the same post.     That's Snowmman.   

There are more Snowmman posts about the money find - I will post a few more along the way.

Oh course there were probably a whole bunch of payphones at that airport. Did they run the records for them all?
We can surmise Snowmman ran a search or two and found nothing otherwise he would have said so.

     

Georger wrote:


Tom and others focus on the 'clay lump and sand' layer Palmer identified as being the dredge spoils from 1974. Above that layer, Palmer identifies a "cross bedded sand" layer which in the Palmer analysis may be the actual baseline against which he assigned all other strata. Each layer found represents a segment of time. The cross bedded layer would presumably represent all deposits, wave action, and erosion between Sept 1974 and the start of the 'upper active layer' which may start in 1978, after the severe drought of 1977. If Palmer is correct then the "cross bedded layer" can only correspond to water events between Sept 1974 and say Sept 1978. So the question arises: does the Columbia river height data at the Vancouver station between Sept 1974 and Sept 1978 support multiple cross-bedded deposition events (at Tina Bar) between Sept '74 and Sept '78, and generally I think it does. Palmer had access to those same Vancouver station records I do today. Those water event records seem to confirm the cross-bedded layer consisting of multiple high water events, which Palmer identified as layer "B". On that basis Palmer would be fully justified in claiming that the "clay lump and sand" layer "C" found below the cross bedded sands layer "B", was in fact the dredging sediments from 1974. Then on top of Layer "B" Palmer places the "upper active" layer representing deposits from say Sept 1978 to the current time February of 1980 - and it is in this topmost layer "A" the Ingram money was recovered.

Kaye arrives in 2008 and finds a severely eroded beachfront at Tina bar, Kay can see a clay layer exposed in the erosion cut, and Kaye believes that clay layer he is seeing predates 1974. Tom believes this is the very layer Palmer was looking at in 1980 and called the 'dredge spoils' layer, but it was not. Tom may be saying that the dredge spoils layer had all but washed away by 1980 and so there was no dredging layer to be found, and Palmer misidentified a deeper (pre 1971?) layer as being the 1974 dredge spoils 'clay and sand'. Quite frankly, it is difficult for me to believe Palmer would make such a basic mistake. Palmer was an expert in this area. 

Tom would then assign Palmer's cross bedded sands layer 'C' as consisting of (a) remnants of the dredging spoils  deposited in 1974 and post 1974-Sept 1978 sands laid down by multiple water events between the end of 1974 to say early 1978.

All of this matters because the dating of the layer in which Ingram money was found is crucial. The water records must agree with the strata found, in any event. And the Vancouver station records I have generally support the multiple water-deposition events which Palmer's cross bedded sands layer 'B' implies.

I can easily see how Palmer would have identified anything below layer 'B', especially anything containing clay, as the 1974 bottom dredging sediments which consists of both clay and coarse sand. But, the baseline is set in Palmer's mind once he see's the cross bedded layer 'B'. Stratum 'B' represents a definable period of time against which actual nearby river station records can be checked. Please recall, it was not just Palmer out a Tina Bar alone. He had backup and co-researchers working with him, some of who are named on Kaye's site. (a professional hydrologist for one).
So Palmer is not operating in complete darkness here.

Do water-weather records support the idea that all of the 1974 dredging spoils placed at Tina Bar had withered down to a non-existent thin layer by the time the cross bedded layer 'B' starts to be assembled at Tina Bar? No. There is nothing to support that contention. The best one could do is contend that cross bedded layer 'B' represents a portion of dredging spoils and post-dredging sands laid down between 8-74 and say 9-78 when we are sure the next cycle of deposition with the flood of 1978 begins (and deposits the upper active layer Palmer found).

This exercise illustrates the issues involved. But, water and weather records must correspond and account for whatever beach strata are found, because beach's just don't build themselves!. Beaches are a temporal story of deposition, erosion, water and wave action, et cetera. Beaches are a clock.


Shutter replies:

1) would a core sample be of any value now?

2) Do you believe the money was protected for a period prior to "hitting the beach" (In the bag)

3) How many people thought the plane was over the Woodland area? (has meaning to money find)

Historical Crests for Columbia River at Vancouver

(P): Preliminary values subject to further review.

(1) 31.00 ft on 06/13/1948
(2) 30.80 ft on 06/01/1948
(3) 27.70 ft on 12/25/1964
(4) 27.60 ft on 06/04/1956
(5) 27.20 ft on 02/09/1996
(6) 26.30 ft on 06/19/1933
(7) 26.20 ft on 05/31/1928
( 26.00 ft on 06/12/1921
(9) 25.90 ft on 06/26/1950
(10) 25.60 ft on 06/16/1903
(11) 25.44 ft on 01/19/1965
(12) 25.30 ft on 06/22/1917
(13) 25.30 ft on 06/03/1916
(14) 25.20 ft on 06/13/1913
(15) 22.55 ft on 01/03/1997
(16) 21.50 ft on 06/12/1972
(17) 21.10 ft on 06/22/1974
(18) 19.54 ft on 01/24/1970
(19) 19.03 ft on 06/05/1997
(20) 18.50 ft on 12/01/1995
(21) 17.50 ft on 04/27/1996
(22) 17.43 ft on 06/02/2011
(23) 16.80 ft on 02/02/1997
(24) 15.00 ft on 12/30/1998
(25) 12.32 ft on 11/26/1999

Lows

(1) -1.20 ft on 01/07/1937
(2) -1.10 ft on 11/08/1936
(3) -0.80 ft on 07/30/1978
(4) -0.80 ft on 07/24/1989
(5) -0.74 ft on 07/14/2001
(6) -0.70 ft on 09/09/1973
(7) -0.70 ft on 11/09/1952
( -0.66 ft on 09/21/2003
(9) -0.52 ft on 09/20/2003
(10) -0.46 ft on 10/10/2001
(11) -0.43 ft on 09/26/2005
(12) -0.42 ft on 09/06/2010
(13) -0.42 ft on 11/04/2007
(14) -0.40 ft on 09/08/2001
(15) -0.37 ft on 09/17/2006
(16) -0.34 ft on 10/30/2006
(17) -0.32 ft on 09/21/2007
(18) -0.28 ft on 09/23/2008
(19) -0.28 ft on 10/12/2001
(20) -0.27 ft on 09/28/2005
(21) -0.22 ft on 10/24/2001
(22) -0.18 ft on 10/01/2006
(23) -0.16 ft on 10/02/2002

I believe Carr and Sluggo think he jumped over the Orchid area past Battle. the pressure bump occurred 5-10 minutes after last contact. I have read on other sites (don't remember) about people claiming they heard the plane over the Woodland area. this puts the plane further west, and closer to the Columbia via Tina B. then you have people claiming the first indication of stair movement (oscillation) was at 8:05?

It's funny, when you move the path to the opposite side of V-23 some things start to line up. people claiming the plane flew over Woodland, the path now actually goes around Portland, and lines up the the red X's/crosshair's. could all be a co-wink-E- Dink though.... if the timing is off, he could of landed somewhere around the Columbia, or just past it......lots of water around, and places to splash, or the popular money came off of Cooper and stayed in the bag for years.....just things rolling around thought wise.

Still seems the odds would be low for a "ground crew" especially if evidence shows Cooper wanting out soon after takeoff?