Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1433465 times)

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1080 on: April 20, 2015, 02:30:14 AM »
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I found a survey from 1985. it's too big to post. it has some of caterpillar on it.....

Survey of Columbia river tidelands?

What's the exact title?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1081 on: April 20, 2015, 02:34:50 AM »
see attachment   
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Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1082 on: April 20, 2015, 08:28:26 AM »
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Tom's premise  is very clear right at the opening of his Palmer section, namely:

Fact: Modern day Tena Bar is severely eroded and exposing natural clay layers that run the length of the beach.
Fact: The Palmer Report discovered and interpreted a buried clay layer as man-made from the dredging operation.
Interpretation: Palmer's original report claiming the clay layer was a result of the dredging was inaccurate.

The Cooper Research Team visited Tena Bar and did their analysis in 2009, a quarter century after the dredging.  Tena Bar is noted as an area where severe erosion occurs.  Could the dredge spoils have completely, or nearly completely eroded away by the time Kaye & company arrived 25 years after the dredging?  It's conceivable to me that after the passage of that much time, in a dynamic area that's where the landscape is known to be constantly changing, that the conditions in 2009 were misinterpreted.   
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"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1083 on: April 20, 2015, 01:32:59 PM »
On, average, Columbia river estuary bottom sediments is composed of about 1% gravel, 84% sand, 13% silt, and 2% clay (Hubbell, and Glenn 1973)

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« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 01:45:58 PM by shutter »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1084 on: April 20, 2015, 01:38:09 PM »
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Tom's premise  is very clear right at the opening of his Palmer section, namely:

Fact: Modern day Tena Bar is severely eroded and exposing natural clay layers that run the length of the beach.
Fact: The Palmer Report discovered and interpreted a buried clay layer as man-made from the dredging operation.
Interpretation: Palmer's original report claiming the clay layer was a result of the dredging was inaccurate.

The Cooper Research Team visited Tena Bar and did their analysis in 2009, a quarter century after the dredging.  Tena Bar is noted as an area where severe erosion occurs.  Could the dredge spoils have completely, or nearly completely eroded away by the time Kaye & company arrived 25 years after the dredging?  It's conceivable to me that after the passage of that much time, in a dynamic area that's where the landscape is known to be constantly changing, that the conditions in 2009 were misinterpreted.

The USGS photos 1950-1979... back up your point. By 2008 the whole beach front including the Ingram find location had ceased to exist.   


 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1085 on: April 20, 2015, 01:54:23 PM »
see photo

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« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 01:56:35 PM by shutter »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1086 on: April 20, 2015, 02:29:06 PM »
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On, average, Columbia river estuary bottom sediments is composed of about 1% gravel, 84% sand, 13% silt, and 2% clay (Hubbell, and Glenn 1973)

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Those figures are for "Columbia River Sediment Input to/at the Washington Coast" ... not the bottom sediment at Tina Bar.  The USGS geologist I spoke to years ago stated that 'bottom sediments vary according to location'. This is why I keep saying 'we need somebody who knows Tina Bar and the bottom sediment in the area of Tina Bar, from which the Tina Bar dredging spoils were taken'. "Bottom sediments vary according to location".

There was no lab work done anyway! By Tom or Palmer! So there is nothing to test from Palmer's trench 1980!

The issue is identifying the strata 1980 vs. 2009 (Tom Kaye). We also need to know the amount of material deposited and removed from Tina Bar, per annum (that probably varies considerably).

Here is the complete article you refer to, in two posts... due to the photo size limit.
   
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 02:40:03 PM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1087 on: April 20, 2015, 02:29:37 PM »
Page 2 -
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1088 on: April 20, 2015, 02:55:55 PM »
Same article, read page 380....see if that tells you anything???
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1089 on: April 20, 2015, 03:23:16 PM »
From what I can see in all of this is it's possible the spoils had a high percentage of sand vs clay. I thought the whole purpose was to sell off the spoils? if so, I would think the last portions of the spoils might be the small amounts spread north, and south on the beach. the clay layer? perhaps it's part of the coastline of that region?


Lower Columbia River Dredging
Clark County, Washington
Fazio Brothers dredges sand from the channel of the Columbia River for use on golf courses and in construction projects. The firm wanted to renew its permits to dredge reaches of the Lower Columbia River, a site within the critical habitat of several species. A biological assessment was required to assess the presence of salmon, steelhead, bull trout, coastal cutthroat trout, bald eagle, Aleutian goose, and the Steller sea lion. With numerous salmon listings in past years, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and National Marine Fisheries Service have heightened their scrutiny of projects that may impact fish and fish habitat. This has resulted in permit review periods of 12 to 18 months. By providing a detailed and comprehensive biological assessment, the entire project-including review time-was completed under budget in less than 12 months and required only minimal changes to the biological assessment.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 03:49:06 PM by shutter »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1090 on: April 20, 2015, 03:51:46 PM »
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From what I can see in all of this is it's possible the spoils had a high percentage of sand vs clay. I thought the whole purpose was to sell off the spoils? if so, I would think the last portions of the spoils might be the small amounts spread north, and south on the beach. the clay layer? perhaps it's part of the coastline of that region?

Clearly, we need a geologist to speak to this. People have been guessing for years. Palmer describes the dredging layer as 'clay lump dredging sand' which was 'a mixture of course sand with fragments of organic clay with the organic clay lumps ranging in size from about an inch to five inches mixed in with coarse sand' (paraphrased).

Clearly, there is a clay layer in Tom's photo and at the bottom of Palmer's trench (see photo of Palmer trench).
Are these the same clay layers? Tom says they are. But if I understand Tom, Tom says the clay layer has nothing to do with the dredging spoils but is a deeper-older formation which underlies the channel bottom itself?

See Palmer trench photos. I think Tom has seen excavation photos superior to anything we have.

The top layer in the Palmer trench photos is a cross bedded layer with what looks like air pockets at the bottom margin of that layer. You can see multiple colored layers of sand in this upper layer, like tree rings.









« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 03:55:31 PM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1091 on: April 20, 2015, 04:01:47 PM »
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From what I can see in all of this is it's possible the spoils had a high percentage of sand vs clay. I thought the whole purpose was to sell off the spoils? if so, I would think the last portions of the spoils might be the small amounts spread north, and south on the beach. the clay layer? perhaps it's part of the coastline of that region?


Lower Columbia River Dredging
Clark County, Washington
Fazio Brothers dredges sand from the channel of the Columbia River for use on golf courses and in construction projects. The firm wanted to renew its permits to dredge reaches of the Lower Columbia River, a site within the critical habitat of several species. A biological assessment was required to assess the presence of salmon, steelhead, bull trout, coastal cutthroat trout, bald eagle, Aleutian goose, and the Steller sea lion. With numerous salmon listings in past years, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and National Marine Fisheries Service have heightened their scrutiny of projects that may impact fish and fish habitat. This has resulted in permit review periods of 12 to 18 months. By providing a detailed and comprehensive biological assessment, the entire project-including review time-was completed under budget in less than 12 months and required only minimal changes to the biological assessment.

I think you are ahead of yourself here. The application of dredging spoils was to renew eroded beach areas all along this part of the Columbia, on both the Washington and Oregon sides. As I said before, the bottom sediment dredged in August 1974 was applied not only to the Washington side at Tina Bar, but in another location on the Oregon side. The Faxio were not in the sand business in 1974, is my understanding. The Faxio started their sand recycling business about 1976 and that grew in stages. By about 1980 or later Environmentalists stopped the Corps practice of dumping dredge sediments directly onto beachfronts ... is my understanding. Snowmman posted about this at DZ in about 2009?

But the 1974 dredging-shoreline replenishment had nothing to do with Faxio sand business. The Faxio sand business did not exist in 1974? The only contract the Faxio had with the US Corps of Engineers in 1974 was to spread the sand deposited by the dredging company on Tina Bar. Another company spread the spoils dumped on the Oregon side in August 1974.




« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 04:09:02 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1092 on: April 20, 2015, 05:24:45 PM »
They were incorporated in mid 1975, it's possible they were still functioning prior to that. records show they have been there since the 50's dealing with dredge sand.

600164746   FAZIO BROS. SAND CO., INC.   REG   WA   06/02/1975     06/30/2014   Perpetual   
Active   Profit   JACK Z FAZIO   12112 NW LOWER RIVER RD   VANCOUVER   WA   98660   

The only way to find is is calling them.....
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 06:36:33 PM by shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1093 on: April 20, 2015, 05:59:25 PM »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1094 on: April 20, 2015, 11:58:34 PM »
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slope stability: severe erosion hazard - slopes greater than 15 degrees; not sure where that means.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 01:56:10 AM by georger »
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