I don't think speed will have anything to do with it, it would go with the flow unless it comes to a halt. then it would be pummeled by the rushing water, and soil.

I'm far from sold on this theory, but it has some positive things to it....it's just like all the others theories. we....just....don't ....know 

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I received another response from a dredge company about the pumps.....

Dave,
 
As a rule of thumb a dredge pump will pass a particle 60% the size of the discharge diameter (24” x 60% = 14” particle). A wiper or any screening device at the cutter can greatly affect the rule of thumb. If the money was bundled very tightly where it wouldn’t just blow apart then there is definitely a chance it made it through the pump. I have heard of acetylene bottles making it through a 30” dredge pump – go figure.
 
 
Bob Wetta
President / CEO

So an object will pass through. The rest of the story is high speed particles, abrasive, not destroying soft wet paper! Turn paper into mush.  

Money bills are supposedly about 75% cotton and 25% linen, so they do behave differently when subjected to moisture than your typical paper.  A single bill can be ripped easily, but a stack of bill could prove resilient.  Ever try to rip a phone book in half?  If the bills were new, they would be even stronger.  It make sense to me that the money bundles traveled at the same speed as the surrounding sand through the dredging process.  Even if the money bundles were stationary, the flow of sand probably wouldn't sandblast them, it would just bury them.  If we laid down underneath the dredge output pipe, we probably wouldn't have our skin sandblasted off, but we probably would be buried quickly.

So its more like a slow moving sludge through the pipe than a jet engine?     Do fish pass through alive?

Someone says:

I agree with this too, citizen sleuths have also come back with similar results that it couldn't just have been lying in water. Rubber bands would've disintegrated sooner than those on the money found many years later. Besides when submerged the bundles tend to fan out wherein at Tina Bar the bundles were intact in rubber bands

than those on the money found many years later.

wherein at Tina Bar the bundles were intact in rubber bands.

Really!? Where are those intact fresh-as-a-daisy rubber bands!? Anyone besides 8 year old Brian and 4 year old Denise ever see them? Did Tom Kaye see them? Did Fidel Castro see them? Did Grandma Moses see them? Did 'Walks with Black Buffalo in Thunder' see them Ka-tonka-smi'loka'ni'pu? I wanna see them intact like-new rubber bands Kaye says were new-intact but would have been long dead and "turned to dust when touched"! I have never seen brand new rubber bands that turn to dust when touched! Are these miracle rubber bands from Pluto? Or from Uranus? Can someone git me some of those miracle rubber bands that are brand new and turn to dust when touched, after 2000 years? Yeeeeeeehaw!   

Impacts of suction dredging on rivers, fish and aquatic communities

Fish eggs, fry, larvae and juveniles can be sucked up (entrainment) and displaced by suction dredging, which can cause death. If they do survive, they can experience higher mortality rates due to increased predation, injuries, physiological stressors, disorientation, abrasions and infections. Mollusks and amphibians are important parts of stream ecology and can also suffer death from suction dredge entrainment, a change or reduction in food and burial in dredge tailings.

How the Cooper money got to Tina's Bar may be undecidable, for the simple fact the money seems to share traits of both dredging and natural water flow. No tests by anyone to date including Tom Kaye have resolved the issue. No rubber band tests or rubber band theory by Kaye has resolved the issue to anyone's satisfaction?

Kaye did pour through files at Seattle and he may know something he is not telling, or is saving, or thinks is not important. Kaye himself may not even know even while thinking he knows!

If Kaye's money position is correct, the only thing that stands out about that position is that it is in a kind of 'catch point', which was close to trees and shrubs during the period 1971-80. Kaye claims the found money was so far away from the dredge spoils that the money has no relationship to the dredging, but that said, the found money position does appear to in a natural catch point, where money and debris traveling together could have met the resistance of shrubs which stopped it's flow further down the sand bar and back into the Columbia? No doubt Kaye would disagree with that observation too!

Kaye's position/explanation of the rubber bands on the Ingram find is 'inexplicable' to me, and even contradictory. I just don't understand what he is saying or not saying.

Pending something to break this logjam, the Ingram find is undecidable to me.

 

   

Georger, I don't think I've read your comment about NMI's theory about the rubber bands, or I missed it. what is your opinion of the sand holding the bands in place? it kind of makes sense that it would do that, and if it's possible can a time frame really be put in place?

Seems to me that we need a test of when the rubber bands get to the point of crumbling when touched?

Anything that holds the money together and stationary helps hold the bands in place, over time. It appears the Ingram bundles had been stationary for some time. If the bands go through some melt-glass-transition phase then the gooey bands will stick to the cotton fibres of the paper before drying out, which would help preserve the image of 'bands still in place' on the money. That 'sticking' by the way, will work better if the paper is more dried out, than if it is wet or if the paper is still new with the paper emulsifiers still fresh!

Remember, this money was found in the upper-active layers of the sand, according to Palmer, which Palmer said was relatively sterile. At 2-4 inches below the surface there is still oxygen, some effects of uv light, and higher temps during the summer season, which would help age the bands and bring them to a brittle state - which could preserve some semblance of 'bands' still visible on the money as the Ingrams say they found it.

Tom cites bands being used in ozone experiments, on his website, which is correct. If you want to speed up the aging of the bands in your experiment just increase the amount of ozone they are exposed to. On the other hand, the molecules that comprise these bands are very well understood and already modeled. You can run computer simulations of these molecules and age them very quickly in a simulation, just by altering the numbers of molecular exchanges with oxygen atoms and uv photons ... if you have the software to do this you can bypass physical experiments which would take years to run in real time. In fact, this is exactly the kind of study a high school chemistry or physics student might conduct, as a science project. Tom could have conducted all of his experiments by simulation vs. doing real time physical experiments and achieved the same (and more diverse) results.

Keep in mind. It's not just the bands and their chemistry. It is also currency paper and its chemistry, working in tandem with the band chemistry.  The paper money has its own chemistry which includes an emulsifier, print chemistry, etc. Each rubber band is sitting around a large block of 'chemistry' (the currency paper) so there is an interaction between the band molecules and the paper itself to consider. The two chemistries are going to interact to a degree ... and age together in the larger environment.  A number of chemical clocks are working together, in this matter.

Snowmman acknowledges this fact: (edit) The amount of rubber in the rubber bands is important to understand, if we're to create a mental model of the decomposition of the rubber vs the currency, and also the compression caused by the rubber band over time.    

Snowmman: I think the statements about rubber bands are just bad science.
There are 4 main factors, I believe, in rubber band decomposition
1) microbial. This depends on a precise range of moisture. Too dry or Too wet inhibits. Cold also inhibits
2) Cold. rubber bands get brittle in cold
3) UV
4) Ozone

Farflung:  I couldn’t understand the ‘Phantom Rubber Band’ testing either. The rubber bands are mentioned only by Brian and perhaps his parents. They were extremely brittle and fell apart upon touch. Where would these artifacts have survived given the eroded margins of the bundles and the removal from the sand? Would the Ingram’s know the difference between nine year old rubber bands and some other debris?

And this from Snowmman: I just realized I've been mentioning the varying descriptions of the money find Brian gave while promoting his auction, but never posted them. In reviewing them, Brian used the phrase "all meshed together". I would interpret that as 3 individual bundles (separated by poor rubber bands) but acting as one bundle.

If you accept this (and I think it's consistent with his testimony elsewhere), then the question of 3 bundles somehow arriving at Tena Bar untethered together, implying a money bag or something..well it becomes moot...i.e. a "meshed bundle" can travel as one unit.

That's why I said it's a myth that the money bag is needed to transport 3 bundles to tena bar, to the found state, or that a money bag is needed to protect them (somehow better than sand and water)


 


       



   

I'll have to soak this one in some before responding  nice post....


By the time all of this is figured out. I fear I will crumble when touched 

Short answer is: sand would not necessarily hold the bands in place but would help hold the money stationary which helps hold the bands in place. The less movement the bundles experience the less chance the bands are displaced at any age.

Rotation of the bills around an axis might imply the money had some force exerted on it while the bands were still fresh and pliable and holding. I stress "might". Rotation or random shifting of bills with no axis would tend to imply the bands were not holding/viable. Are Kaye's bill movement photos rotation on an axis or random shifting? Kaye does not say.

Lastly, aging of the bands can be computer modeled (simulations). It is just easier for ordinary people to conduct physical tests which take time.

     

 

Kaye's illustration strongly suggests that the bills that indicate rotation were well secured by a rubber band at one end of the packet.

That's why I was wondering if it was possible that they bundled several together, but apparently that didn't happen...banks are known to do this, but I guess not in this case...

Quote

Kaye's illustration strongly suggests that the bills that indicate rotation were well secured by a rubber band at one end of the packet.

That's why I was wondering if it was possible that they bundled several together, but apparently that didn't happen...banks are known to do this, but I guess not in this case...

Larry says no to that since talking to the bank person who prepared the bundles with bands.