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Oh, and since I'm a new poster but a longtime reader of Cooper books, I'll go ahead and state my belief on what seem to be the big two questions. First, I think Cooper survived. Someone should have found him or his chute otherwise. The possible LZ is large and rugged, but we aren't talking about Alaska here. Something would have turned up. Also, if he died, a missing persons report for someone like him likely would have surfaced (I'm aware of Melvin Wilson).

Another member of team Cooper lived. I feel a little less like a bigfoot hunter today than I did yesterday.

I just feel that without a body and without any physical evidence being found such as the chute, the rig, his briefcase, etc., that it's totally faulty to assume that he died. It's also ridiculous the lengths that some people are willing to go to in order to explain this lack of evidence: he totally landed in a river that is the width of a football field instead of the miles of dry land in every other direction and then he totally died of hypothermia in minutes and then he totally floated down the river and then he totally got caught in the propeller of a ship (el-oh-el) and then his body totally got washed out to sea. Gimme a break. Ludicrous. If you want to believe he died in the jump, then that's perfectly reasonable. It's very possible that he never got his chute open and crashed into the forest and became food for bears.

The whole "river death" thing is just an argument of convenience to explain away the lack of physical evidence. It is also one of the only ways that you can argue that he opened his chute while also arguing that he died. Otherwise you're assuming that an open chute stuck in a treetop (with a body hanging from it) was missed by hundreds of searchers or that an open chute (with a body next to it) was laying in open ground and was missed by these hundreds of searchers. Any idiot can pull a rip cord, hell I bet even Jo could do it, so the only way to square away the overwhelming odds that he pulled his ripcord while still thinking he died while still explaining away the lack of evidence is the completely ridiculous "river death" scenario.

However, I am leaning very strongly to the idea that he never landed with the money. In WWII, specifically in the Normandy jump, the paratroopers had all sorts of giant gear bags strapped to them and a very large amount were ripped away and fell to the earth from the initial blast of air. On D-Day, for whatever reason, the pilots of the C-47's that the 101st Airborne flew in were flying way too fast when the boys jumped out. They were going somewhere around 140mph and should have been at a "safe drop" speed of 110mph. So, if 140mph was ripping bags from trained paratroopers, then I'd have to think that there was a good chance that 200mph would have ripped DB's money bag away that he rigged to himself.  Also, as has been mentioned many times, military chutes like the one DB used are not exactly gentle when they deploy. This jolt could have also ripped away his money bag.

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There really is no mystery about any of this. Some marginalised people thrive where there is nothing better to fill the void they occupy, where there is no management to set a rational direction.

This is the truth. I spent many years as an Asst. District Attorney and crackpot conspiracy theorists searching for some purpose in their dull lives are dime a dozen. It's sad, really.

Oh, and since I'm a new poster but a longtime reader of Cooper books, I'll go ahead and state my belief on what seem to be the big two questions. First, I think Cooper survived. Someone should have found him or his chute otherwise. The possible LZ is large and rugged, but we aren't talking about Alaska here. Something would have turned up. Also, if he died, a missing persons report for someone like him likely would have surfaced (I'm aware of Melvin Wilson). Second, I don't think Cooper is anyone that has been named yet and most certainly isn't KC or Weber.

First, a late welcome to the thread from me also.  And I completely agree with the last sentence in your post.

At the present time, the proposed landing zone for the jump is nothing but guess work.  In addition, the exact flight path of the airliner as it passed through the Portland area is not known.  It seems that the information required to determine that flight path was redacted from the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center's radio transcripts for that flight to Reno.  Efforts to obtain the redacted information have been underway for some time and it is possible that the required stars are now coming into alignment.

Shutter is working on a video to illustrate the flight path problems and it may be available within the very near future.

Please post regularly to this thread.  For those of us who have spent years on the DZ Cooper thread, it is ALWAYS refreshing to hear from someone who actually knows what he is talking about.

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OMC, You seem to be projecting some of your own assumptions as facts.  No one to my knowledge has claimed that Cooper landed in the Columbia River while flying directly across it.

I was talking about the Lewis River. Is that not what Carr and Kaye & Co. used to assert? That he fell in the Lewis River then floated into the Columbia and got caught up in the big ships? If we are talking about Cooper landing in the Columbia River, then that's a whole different animal. The Columbia is damn near a mile across in some spots. If a flight path could be shown that had them flying over the Columbia for a significant time, then I wouldn't doubt him going into the drink.

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I seem to be one of the people who, after considering all other options, consider it very likely that Cooper actually landed as a no-pull on solid ground very close to the water's edge of the Columbia River.

Perhaps, but I'd have to think that if he landed on solid ground that his body would have been spotted at some point, especially with the parachute rig and presumably a briefcase. No?

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Some of your quoted remarks above suggest to me that you have very limited aeronautical or aviation experience.  In order to help other posters here, including myself, understand your views and where you are coming from, please list your aeronautical qualifications.  Do you have any skydiving or parachuting experience?  Do you have any experience as a pilot?  Do you have any engineering or technical experience or experience in the physical sciences?

I have none nor do I pretend to have any. There is no way in hell I would ever skydive and I would never wish to pilot a plane. My grandfather was in the 82nd Airborne in WWII and made all four combat jumps. So I've always been interested in WWII paratroopers and have read a good deal about it, but that's as far as my "knowledge" of skydiving goes.

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You are entitled to hold any views you want.  However, you should also be prepared to defend those views and don't expect everyone to agree with you.  No offense intended.

I've prosecuted about a dozen murder trials and have argued on appeals in front of our state Supreme Court (that's nine justices staring you down), so you don't have to hold my hand when it comes to debate and being told I'm wrong and even admitting when I'm wrong! Haha. So no offense taken my friend! It's all good. I chose to post on this forum and not DZ because people here appear A) to be saner, and B) to be much nicer and respectful.

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OMC, You seem to be projecting some of your own assumptions as facts.  No one to my knowledge has claimed that Cooper landed in the Columbia River while flying directly across it.

I was talking about the Lewis River. Is that not what Carr and Kaye & Co. used to assert? That he fell in the Lewis River then floated into the Columbia and got caught up in the big ships? If we are talking about Cooper landing in the Columbia River, then that's a whole different animal. The Columbia is damn near a mile across in some spots. If a flight path could be shown that had them flying over the Columbia for a significant time, then I wouldn't doubt him going into the drink.

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I seem to be one of the people who, after considering all other options, consider it very likely that Cooper actually landed as a no-pull on solid ground very close to the water's edge of the Columbia River.

Perhaps, but I'd have to think that if he landed on solid ground that his body would have been spotted at some point, especially with the parachute rig and presumably a briefcase. No?

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Some of your quoted remarks above suggest to me that you have very limited aeronautical or aviation experience.  In order to help other posters here, including myself, understand your views and where you are coming from, please list your aeronautical qualifications.  Do you have any skydiving or parachuting experience?  Do you have any experience as a pilot?  Do you have any engineering or technical experience or experience in the physical sciences?

I have none nor do I pretend to have any. There is no way in hell I would ever skydive and I would never wish to pilot a plane. My grandfather was in the 82nd Airborne in WWII and made all four combat jumps. So I've always been interested in WWII paratroopers and have read a good deal about it, but that's as far as my "knowledge" of skydiving goes.

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You are entitled to hold any views you want.  However, you should also be prepared to defend those views and don't expect everyone to agree with you.  No offense intended.

I've prosecuted about a dozen murder trials and have argued on appeals in front of our state Supreme Court (that's nine justices staring you down), so you don't have to hold my hand when it comes to debate and being told I'm wrong and even admitting when I'm wrong! Haha. So no offense taken my friend! It's all good. I chose to post on this forum and not DZ because people here appear A) to be saner, and B) to be much nicer and respectful.

Olem, Kaye's propeller 'remark' was just that, an impromptu remark in the face of cameras, and never intended to be a serious theory. I dont think it dawned on Tom or Carr that it would get the airplay it did! Tom can speak for himself but that is my understanding (and belief based on Tom's explanation to me, and I believe him!  .

Cooper's descent that night was probably a nearly blind descent, based on the weather, his lack of control of the chute, and the altitude where it starts. Who knows if he had experience or not, but I also have family who were paratroopers in WWII and Cooper's method of tying off the bag is very indicative of prior WWII training? I also wouldn't doubt at all that the bag got separated from Cooper due to the forces involved. The method Cooper used to tie off the bag and then around his waste is the first thing the paratroopers in my family point to, as a weak link in the jump scenario. So, it is possible Cooper landed in one place and the bag full of money in another place! If this all occurred in the Columbia water shed, then travel to Tina's Bar is more plausible. In fact, if the tying of the bag was a weak link as my family members think it likely was, then there are two objects falling (not just one) with two distinct trajectories, two landing zones, and two time frames, departing a flight path in motion.

I believe much also depends on the time stamps placed on these events. The later Cooper bails after 8:11 (the traditional time stamp given to Cooper's jump), the closer to the Columbia Cooper and the bag gets.

What we need are more primary documents and data from the FBI. Our ability to analyze these matters is very much dependent on the data we have, and don't have!     

 

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Olem, Kaye's propeller 'remark' was just that, an impromptu remark in the face of cameras, and never intended to be a serious theory. I dont think it dawned on Tom or Carr that it would get the airplay it did! Tom can speak for himself but that is my understanding (and belief based on Tom's explanation to me, and I believe him!  .

Well that's very good to know because I respect Kaye's work a lot!

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Cooper's descent that night was probably a nearly blind descent, based on the weather, his lack of control of the chute, and the altitude where it starts.

This is a question for Robert, who appears to be this board's resident parachutist, but there a few things I'm wondering about the jump itself. If he had pulled his chute immediately after jumping at that height, it would have taken him what, ten minutes to fall to earth? In that time, in the high winds that were alleged that night, how far would he expect to drift away from the spot directly below him when he first jumped out? Are we talking miles of drift? A few hundred yards?

It's my understanding that most sport parachutists will release the chute at around 1,000 feet so they aren't floating around in the sky for 15 minutes, but if you were in DB's situation with solid cloud cover below you and an uncertain altitude (I'm assuming DB didn't really know how high they were, he just trusted the crew to follow his instructions), would you risk a sustained free fall or would you release your chute almost immediately just to be on the safe side?

Also, being a parachutist, can you "feel" your altitude? What I mean is, if you were in DB's shoes standing on the stairs, could you tell the difference in 5,000ft-10,000ft-15,000 ft in the middle of a cloudy storm with almost zero visibility.