Very interesting post - at DZ    re- Elsinore suspect conveyed to FBI

 Nicholas Broughton

On 11/19/2019 at 8:04 PM, Andrade1812 said:

    I don't how many skydivers are still on this thread, but I'm looking for help: I would like to talk to any old-timers who were skydivers in the late 60s and early 70s who were jumping in Los Angeles. Specifically, anyone who was at the Elsinore Paracenter in the summer of 1971.

    Any referrals would be most welcome, PM me or contact me at marty.andrade at gmail

I live in Lake Elsinore Marty. Lyle Cameron who was running the paracenter at the time was the guy who told the fbi this when they came to the DZ shortly after norjack. Lyle passed away in a plane crash in Honduras in 93. I talked to his son Lyle Cameron Jr. I read him the fbi 302 and he said he heard the exact same report verbatim not directly from his dad but one of his dads skydiving buddies (couldn’t recall names thinks maybe Jerry Tyson) matching description, smoking Raleigh’s, Cochran boots, asking questions on how to jump out of a Jet.

I asked if he made a jump he said no just came asked questions and left. He also added that the jumpers described him as being geeky looking same terminology Mitchell used for describing cooper. I asked Cameron jr if any of those guys there that day might still be alive he said most likely there all dead. Another interesting tidbit, Mark Metzler said at the conference that Elsinore was a known recruiting hub for the CIA. One of the last two people jack ruby called before he killed Oswald was Lyle Cameron Sr. It’s in the fbi files. I brought this up with his son and he also knew about this and has also been puzzled...to quote him “what was ruby doing calling my old man.”

He believes his dad worked for the government and was killed by them. My guess is cooper wasn’t a sports jumper and wasn’t a regular jumper in the military, most likely a fighter pilot who had one emergency jump or something so he was sent or advised to go to lake elsinore and talk to Lyle (pioneer of the sport, started skydiving magazine) to do some homework for norjack. That could explain why Tina saw cooper look at the packing cards. That’s something a sports jumper would tell him to look for and where there located.

This Elsinore incident is too big of a coincident to me, a guy matching description smoking Raleigh’s and asking about jumping out of jets 3 months prior, it has to be related. I believe this incident and the incident a week before norjack where there was a report of flares being dropped from a low flying plane in Cottage Grove Oregon to the Eugene, are both directly related to the case.

Edited 14 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

Lots o' coincidences, Nicky, for sure.

One thought. I sense that weird stuff happens all the time for weird reasons. So, with the flares dropping over Eugene the week prior to Norjak, is it related to DBC? Or does the timing to the skyjacking make it seem related?

Do Big Events like the Cooper skyjacking automatically inflate all the weird, unrelated stuff around it?

That's not to say that the Eugene flares are not related to Cooper. They could be. I'm just offering a counter-balancing analysis.

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Lots o' coincidences, Nicky, for sure.

One thought. I sense that weird stuff happens all the time for weird reasons. So, with the flares dropping over Eugene the week prior to Norjak, is it related to DBC? Or does the timing to the skyjacking make it seem related?

Do Big Events like the Cooper skyjacking automatically inflate all the weird, unrelated stuff around it?

That's not to say that the Eugene flares are not related to Cooper. They could be. I'm just offering a counter-balancing analysis.

Thanks Bruce for giving me another perspective and I get your point for sure. What made me believe it was related is the fact that Clifford Ammerman who got the report said in the unique flights and flyers book that he thought it was related. Him being an air traffic controller, has heard all kinds of reports that came in and he found this to be very unusual.

Of what possible benefit would dropping flares from 10,000 feet and above an overcast and several cloud layers be to Cooper?

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Lots o' coincidences, Nicky, for sure.

One thought. I sense that weird stuff happens all the time for weird reasons. So, with the flares dropping over Eugene the week prior to Norjak, is it related to DBC? Or does the timing to the skyjacking make it seem related?

Do Big Events like the Cooper skyjacking automatically inflate all the weird, unrelated stuff around it?

That's not to say that the Eugene flares are not related to Cooper. They could be. I'm just offering a counter-balancing analysis.

Thanks Bruce for giving me another perspective and I get your point for sure. What made me believe it was related is the fact that Clifford Ammerman who got the report said in the unique flights and flyers book that he thought it was related. Him being an air traffic controller, has heard all kinds of reports that came in and he found this to be very unusual.

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Lots o' coincidences, Nicky, for sure.

One thought. I sense that weird stuff happens all the time for weird reasons. So, with the flares dropping over Eugene the week prior to Norjak, is it related to DBC? Or does the timing to the skyjacking make it seem related?

Do Big Events like the Cooper skyjacking automatically inflate all the weird, unrelated stuff around it?

That's not to say that the Eugene flares are not related to Cooper. They could be. I'm just offering a counter-balancing analysis.

Thanks Bruce for giving me another perspective and I get your point for sure. What made me believe it was related is the fact that Clifford Ammerman who got the report said in the unique flights and flyers book that he thought it was related. Him being an air traffic controller, has heard all kinds of reports that came in and he found this to be very unusual.

If the Janet report happened, and there is no documentation it did, that would only enhance interest. I told Ammerman about the Janet report - he had never heard about it before which is also interesting. My feeling is we will never know if there was a connection or not ...

I was thinking the same thing G, if somehow the Janet Report could be confirmed then that report is even more compelling but I agree we will never know like many things in this case.

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Lots o' coincidences, Nicky, for sure.

One thought. I sense that weird stuff happens all the time for weird reasons. So, with the flares dropping over Eugene the week prior to Norjak, is it related to DBC? Or does the timing to the skyjacking make it seem related?

Do Big Events like the Cooper skyjacking automatically inflate all the weird, unrelated stuff around it?

That's not to say that the Eugene flares are not related to Cooper. They could be. I'm just offering a counter-balancing analysis.

Thanks Bruce for giving me another perspective and I get your point for sure. What made me believe it was related is the fact that Clifford Ammerman who got the report said in the unique flights and flyers book that he thought it was related. Him being an air traffic controller, has heard all kinds of reports that came in and he found this to be very unusual.

If the Janet report happened, and there is no documentation it did, that would only enhance interest. I told Ammerman about the Janet report - he had never heard about it before which is also interesting. My feeling is we will never know if there was a connection or not ...

I was thinking the same thing G, if somehow the Janet Report could be confirmed then that report is even more compelling but I agree we will never know like many things in this case.

Between us kids ... when I told Cliff about the Janet report I was assuming he probably had never heard of it before. But I wondered if LE had explored all of this with Cliff and the other controllers .... Cliff astounded me and said "NO! They asked us almost nothing!" which surprised me. Then Cliff got excited and asked me to repeat the 'Janet story' again ... he asked many questions. He ate it up. I kept telling me "this is unproven" and he still had questions! He made me laugh at his excitement ...

He said once 305 cleared Eugene and the controller there was free, Cliff called him and they jumped right on the Eugene flare incident speculating about it . . . Cliffr told me an FAA report was filed on the flare incident, likewise an advisory to the FBI ... so people were aware of it. There should be 302s about it somewhere.

Where are the 302s about the Janet report she says she called in to the FBI? 

I hope people can get more info about the guy at Elsinore. And see the 302s on it!  Keep us informed!

I’m on it G, asking around the old school skydivers Facebook Group community trying to talk to anybody or a relative of anybody there that day. Cameron Jr’s memory is fuzzy being so long ago but the guy coming to mind that told him the same story his dad told the fbi was a skydiving photographer named Jerry Tyson. He’s disappeared from the community, everyone I’ve talked to says they haven’t heard from him in years, so he is probably dead but I’ll try to confirm for sure.

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Very interesting post - at DZ    re- Elsinore suspect conveyed to FBI

 Nicholas Broughton

On 11/19/2019 at 8:04 PM, Andrade1812 said:

    I don't how many skydivers are still on this thread, but I'm looking for help: I would like to talk to any old-timers who were skydivers in the late 60s and early 70s who were jumping in Los Angeles. Specifically, anyone who was at the Elsinore Paracenter in the summer of 1971.

    Any referrals would be most welcome, PM me or contact me at marty.andrade at gmail

I live in Lake Elsinore Marty. Lyle Cameron who was running the paracenter at the time was the guy who told the fbi this when they came to the DZ shortly after norjack. Lyle passed away in a plane crash in Honduras in 93. I talked to his son Lyle Cameron Jr. I read him the fbi 302 and he said he heard the exact same report verbatim not directly from his dad but one of his dads skydiving buddies (couldn’t recall names thinks maybe Jerry Tyson) matching description, smoking Raleigh’s, Cochran boots, asking questions on how to jump out of a Jet.

I asked if he made a jump he said no just came asked questions and left. He also added that the jumpers described him as being geeky looking same terminology Mitchell used for describing cooper. I asked Cameron jr if any of those guys there that day might still be alive he said most likely there all dead. Another interesting tidbit, Mark Metzler said at the conference that Elsinore was a known recruiting hub for the CIA. One of the last two people jack ruby called before he killed Oswald was Lyle Cameron Sr. It’s in the fbi files. I brought this up with his son and he also knew about this and has also been puzzled...to quote him “what was ruby doing calling my old man.”

He believes his dad worked for the government and was killed by them. My guess is cooper wasn’t a sports jumper and wasn’t a regular jumper in the military, most likely a fighter pilot who had one emergency jump or something so he was sent or advised to go to lake elsinore and talk to Lyle (pioneer of the sport, started skydiving magazine) to do some homework for norjack. That could explain why Tina saw cooper look at the packing cards. That’s something a sports jumper would tell him to look for and where there located.

This Elsinore incident is too big of a coincident to me, a guy matching description smoking Raleigh’s and asking about jumping out of jets 3 months prior, it has to be related. I believe this incident and the incident a week before norjack where there was a report of flares being dropped from a low flying plane in Cottage Grove Oregon to the Eugene, are both directly related to the case.

Edited 14 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

The visit at Elsinore is a very interesting piece to this puzzle.  An Elsinore like story pops up in one of the DB Cooper books too.  I put the Elsinore story in the same group as the incident where a man boarded a flight from San Diego to Burbank in early November, claiming to be from the movie industry and asking about throwing an object from a plane to someone on the ground.  These two could be related to DB Cooper, or not at all.  On one hand it seems odd that a man plotting to hijack a plane would telegraph his moves just a few weeks in advance, but then again he may not have even decided to go through with it at that point.

Link to the FBI file is here:  Starts around page 7.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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If you don't want to log in, it's on the FBI FOIA tab of Colbert's site.  The first file page 7.  "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login"