Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 1488940 times)

Offline Prospector

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2745 on: May 06, 2018, 12:09:05 AM »
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Ok

Are any of the sketches closes to this description

Here is a compilation of the publicly released FBI sketches with some good discussion.  Note that the profile sketches are not included, and have not yet been released publicly to the best of my knowledge.

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From: citizensleuths.com

There is also the sketch made on TV by one of the witnesses in 1988 that is out there also. In that one, the hairline (widow’s peak) was hotly disputed, but the indifferent look of the eyes (hooded, droopy) and more sunken cheeks are of particular interest.  We are led to believe that this witness was the only one who got a half decent look at the eyes before he donned his bug-eyed sunglasses.

Disclaimer:  So I don’t have to be told by those who make a point of doing so – I know this has been discussed before, but there may be some who are not aware, and, as a courtesy, I am bringing it to their attention – OK??
 

georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2746 on: May 06, 2018, 12:16:50 AM »
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Ok

Are any of the sketches closes to this description

Here is a compilation of the publicly released FBI sketches with some good discussion.  Note that the profile sketches are not included, and have not yet been released publicly to the best of my knowledge.

Link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
From: citizensleuths.com

There is also the sketch made on TV by one of the witnesses in 1988 that is out there also. In that one, the hairline (widow’s peak) was hotly disputed, but the indifferent look of the eyes (hooded, droopy) and more sunken cheeks are of particular interest.  We are led to believe that this witness was the only one who got a half decent look at the eyes before he donned his bug-eyed sunglasses.

Disclaimer:  So I don’t have to be told by those who make a point of doing so – I know this has been discussed before, but there may be some who are not aware, and, as a courtesy, I am bringing it to their attention – OK??

Its good to see Tom's work being used!

Was the "sketch made on TV by one of the witnesses in 1988" Flo Schaffner. Her atrist was an LAPD artist - something like that?

Anything further on the droopy or protruding lower lip ?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2747 on: May 06, 2018, 12:36:45 AM »
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Cooper royalty?

So who is the Cooper King, Queen, Court Jester?

Actually, there are numerous adjacent kingdoms, some at war with each other. Jo reigns over one of them, Duanesbury.

So who are the Cooper commoners? Vassals? Feudal tenants?

Ever notice that reincarnated people usually believe that they were somebody quite important in a past life, almost never a dullard or commoner? Same deal with obituaries, significant upgrades, selfish jerks were "generous and beloved by all" etc.

We need a dynasty chart. A map. Gotta know who to bow or curtsy to. To whom do we owe fealty? 

377

I believe I am a prince.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 12:37:00 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline dice

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2748 on: May 06, 2018, 09:14:21 PM »
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SOME quotes form the FBI files...

SA HENRY SHUTZ called from Bureau on 11/29/71

He said that he talked to the artist who interviewed one of the stewardesses, the only one who saw the man without glasses and she was unable to definitely recall what his eyes looked like.

RE: Artist’s sketch

“The hairline was good, Hair itself should be marcelled and hair style of President Nixon is quite similar to what unsub had. Hair should be slicked down as characters wore in old George Raft movies. Nose in artists’s conception is too pinched, should be broadened in area of nostrils.  Cheeks too flat. Should be more rounded to give Mexican American appearance.

The Hijacker was wearing dark glasses when xxxx saw him and he was unable to furnish any particulars about the hijackers eyes. After studying the artists’s sketch of the hijacker, xxxx had the following comments. He stated that the hijacker had an overall appearance which was in some ways similar to the artists’s sketch. However, he recalled that the hijacker had a broader nose, wider forehead and face in general, than that depicted in the sketch.

That he has average eyes, of Latin appearance, with a sort of disinterested look… thought artists’s conception was very good overall. Except the hair did not recede quite so much as he remembers it, it was a little more curly and definitely short. He also thinks the nose and face slightly too thin, although not much. Feel’s artist sketch makes him look younger than he is.

The subjects hair was jet black, greasy, had a patent leather sheen, marcelled, combed almost straight back but with a slight angle toward the right side of the head and a slight part on the left.

He felt the subject might have been a Mexican-American with possibly some American Indian blood.


.. suggested the following changes;

The hair should be as it appears in the sketch, not photograph, at the top of page 104 in the above-mentioned catalog; it should be marcelled with a slight part on the left, with a patent leather sheen.

The mouth’s lower lip is too full….

The chin is too too broad….

SA XXX penciled in a narrower lip, narrowed the chin and shaded the area on either side of the chin in the artist’s sketch. XXXX stated that with these changes the resemblance was closer, but that the entire face should be longer. The sketch, as it originally existed resembled a “clean cut American” too much.

The neck and chin of unsub appear as if he had been fat and lost weight, leaving some flabby skin. Everything from nose up is good. Mouth is also good. Overall picture of composite makes unsub appear younger than he actually is.



Hahneman clamed to have cancer and pics of Hahneman seemed to range from heavy to thin and back to heavier with a "turkey neck".
Two Hahneman pics, one compilation and one with George Raft (Left) and Hahneman (middle) and Richard Nixon. He has "marcelled" Nixon hair..

Which sketch is the reference by Shulz?  Sketch B ???
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2749 on: May 06, 2018, 09:22:30 PM »
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SOME quotes form the FBI files...

SA HENRY SHUTZ called from Bureau on 11/29/71

He said that he talked to the artist who interviewed one of the stewardesses, the only one who saw the man without glasses and she was unable to definitely recall what his eyes looked like.

RE: Artist’s sketch

“The hairline was good, Hair itself should be marcelled and hair style of President Nixon is quite similar to what unsub had. Hair should be slicked down as characters wore in old George Raft movies. Nose in artists’s conception is too pinched, should be broadened in area of nostrils.  Cheeks too flat. Should be more rounded to give Mexican American appearance.

The Hijacker was wearing dark glasses when xxxx saw him and he was unable to furnish any particulars about the hijackers eyes. After studying the artists’s sketch of the hijacker, xxxx had the following comments. He stated that the hijacker had an overall appearance which was in some ways similar to the artists’s sketch. However, he recalled that the hijacker had a broader nose, wider forehead and face in general, than that depicted in the sketch.

That he has average eyes, of Latin appearance, with a sort of disinterested look… thought artists’s conception was very good overall. Except the hair did not recede quite so much as he remembers it, it was a little more curly and definitely short. He also thinks the nose and face slightly too thin, although not much. Feel’s artist sketch makes him look younger than he is.

The subjects hair was jet black, greasy, had a patent leather sheen, marcelled, combed almost straight back but with a slight angle toward the right side of the head and a slight part on the left.

He felt the subject might have been a Mexican-American with possibly some American Indian blood.


.. suggested the following changes;

The hair should be as it appears in the sketch, not photograph, at the top of page 104 in the above-mentioned catalog; it should be marcelled with a slight part on the left, with a patent leather sheen.

The mouth’s lower lip is too full….

The chin is too too broad….

SA XXX penciled in a narrower lip, narrowed the chin and shaded the area on either side of the chin in the artist’s sketch. XXXX stated that with these changes the resemblance was closer, but that the entire face should be longer. The sketch, as it originally existed resembled a “clean cut American” too much.

The neck and chin of unsub appear as if he had been fat and lost weight, leaving some flabby skin. Everything from nose up is good. Mouth is also good. Overall picture of composite makes unsub appear younger than he actually is.



Hahneman clamed to have cancer and pics of Hahneman seemed to range from heavy to thin and back to heavier with a "turkey neck".
Two Hahneman pics, one compilation and one with George Raft (Left) and Hahneman (middle) and Richard Nixon. He has "marcelled" Nixon hair..

Which sketch is the reference by Shulz?  Sketch B ???

Don't know, it doesn't say in the FBI files..
 

Offline DovidFraiman

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2750 on: May 06, 2018, 09:49:58 PM »
Does anyone why the initial sketch was not released to the public
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2751 on: May 08, 2018, 08:57:14 AM »
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"Hahneman was born July 5, 1922 to a Honduran mother, Delia Pastore Ordonez, and his late father, William Frederick Hahneman of San Francisco. He attended a junior college in Mississippi, joined the Army and served as a radar operator and flight crew member in World War II, and traveled widely and lived in "a number of foreign countries working as a radio, electrical and communications"
 

georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2752 on: May 08, 2018, 02:15:58 PM »
Life is just easier if you accept that Kenny Whosit was DBN Cooper.

Or maybe he was Queen Mary?

Or maybe he was MacArthur, in drag?

Lyle Christiansen sure had a grudge against his brother for Kenny's gay lifestyle! Its a short path from family embarrassment to 'Kenny Was the Most Successful Skyjacker in History'!  As we all know, DB Cooper, Jon Benet, and Yamamoto and the Second World War are all linked!

Kenny discovered Quantum Physics and made the first atomic bomb .... in his spare time in his cabin. That links Kenny to the UnaBomber!

The whole thing would be a good idea for a movie script! Make the movie and worry about the truth later, of course. The Adventure Books media war (whoever they are!) has already been playing daily since August 2010! Its the latest greatest movie ever made - oh so great! :chr2:     

Life is just better-easier if you accept it and move on to the final days of life on Earth.

Dont resist! Or the Houscleaning storm troopers in tanks will be at your door!  :nono:

Kenny Watchers are watching and taking names. Don't resist! Resistance is futile!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 02:46:56 PM by georger »
 

Offline Prospector

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2753 on: May 08, 2018, 04:13:12 PM »
Folk Hero: Those engineers and test pilots who developed the 727, those brave souls who perfected the jump capabilities, all those who used the techniques toward more noble causes than air piracy and extortion, and last, but certainly not least, those who sacrificed all in combat using the system.

Pick one of the above
 

georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2754 on: May 08, 2018, 04:20:31 PM »
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Folk Hero: Those engineers and test pilots who developed the 727, those brave souls who perfected the jump capabilities, all those who used the techniques toward more noble causes than air piracy and extortion, and last, but certainly not least, those who sacrificed all in combat using the system.

Pick one of the above

Not sure people were thinking about 'nobility' and the 'long view' vs. just doing their jobs, thinking about employment, and personal concerns .... as most people do with their lives. The hijacker saw an opportunity and took it. Simple as that!  Most people just try and complete the race between A and B, and aren't quite sure where B is or if they will make to B. ;) 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 04:33:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2755 on: May 08, 2018, 04:34:05 PM »
"Folk Hero: Those engineers and test pilots who developed the 727, those brave souls who perfected the jump capabilities..."

Not sure there was any "perfecting" needed. 727 was not designed for airdrops but the existing design seemed to work quite well for that task.

No special training was required for the WFFC 727 and DC 9 skydives. Stairs were removed to expedite mass single file exits. Even with that mod, some late exiting jumpers landed a long way from the DZ.

I'll never forget my jet jump. Really fun. The opportunity for a legal jet jump may be gone forever unless you are Sergey Brin. whose Google Gulfstream V has an STC for jumping from the baggage door. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

As for the WFFC jet jumpships, Amerijet no longer flies 727s and The Perris valley DC 9-21 is grounded with a timed out engine and stale annual inspection.

377
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 04:38:21 PM by 377 »
 
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Offline MEYDC

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2756 on: May 09, 2018, 07:58:49 AM »
I hope that the FBI considers reopening the Cooper case. In California now that DNA has led to an arrest in the GSK case, dna is now being used to test in The Zodiac Killer's case. There has to be something that they can test to solve this case.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2757 on: May 09, 2018, 11:29:42 AM »
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I hope that the FBI considers reopening the Cooper case. In California now that DNA has led to an arrest in the GSK case, dna is now being used to test in The Zodiac Killer's case. There has to be something that they can test to solve this case.

Maybe they don't want to... their mandate is a prosecution, if they believe Cooper is not prosecutable or dead then they won't proceed. Catch 22, only the FBI can put a suspect on the plane. Ironically, the FBI prosecution mandate will prevent/obstruct a forensic solve in the Cooper case. Of course publicly, we can speculate.


Hahneman ticks every box except height... the FBI needs to say why he was excluded.

Reading up on forensic psych, height estimation by witnesses isn't as "reliable" as even I had believed.. environment (inside airplane), stress and leading questions can cause an estimate rather than true recall..

"There was also a tendency for participants underestimate the height of taller targets and to overestimate the height of shorter targets - a finding that can be interpreted as regression to the mean. Flin and Shepherd explain this finding with reference to subjects’ knowledge of population norms, which might induce observers to shy away from extreme judgements."

"eyewitnesses are often inaccurate in their descriptions. Yarmey (2004) found that witnesses were very accurate in their recall of a person’s hairstyle and age with 92 and 97% correct recall respectively. However, they were quite inaccurate at recalling six other physical characteristics, such as eye colour and height. The correct recall rate for these characteristics ranged from 21 to 64%. Dependence on an initial description is often necessary for narrowing down possible suspects. The combination of these studies indicates that the relationship between descriptions and identifications should be interpreted with caution."


Hahneman height FBI = 5’ 8” witnesses claimed 5’ 10"

age 49
eyes brown
weight - match
hairstyle match - marcelled
white, latin appearance, olive skin, swarthy
“turkey neck"
glasses
smoker
intelligent
reported no English accent
weight seemed to fluctuate

electrician
radar tech (tie particle “rare earth’s” environment match) Philco
military - flight crew/radar tech
WW2/Korea/Vietnam (also in Cambodia and Latin America)
airplane knowledge

Honduran mother/German father

“American currency” money for use in Honduras/Hahneman worked outside US (never at residence in US)

had briefcase, claimed bomb inside
Claimed cancer - Lycopodium clavatum (found on tie) was homeopathic pill medication for cancer

Always well dressed in suit and tie

Asked for larger bills/smaller bundle/less weight

Jumped at night over jungle




 

Offline 377

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2758 on: May 09, 2018, 12:42:53 PM »
"radar tech (tie particle “rare earth’s” environment match) Philco"

Does radar tech account for Bismuth and pure Titanium?

377
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #2759 on: May 09, 2018, 01:26:46 PM »
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"radar tech (tie particle “rare earth’s” environment match) Philco"

Does radar tech account for Bismuth and pure Titanium?

377

I can't find exactly what he worked on post military, but he was an EE tech for Philco (and reportedly Bendix), radio/radar systems, weather and missile match the tie particle environment. It isn't "proof" but it is consistent. One report was helicopter missiles in Vietnam, but both Bendix and Philco were contractors that moved employees around.

Philco components were installed on 727's.. but I can't connect Hahneman to 727's.

What is interesting is the lack of information from the FBI. Nothing on Hahneman, lots on other "copycat's".. The only info on Hahneman is from the media in the early 70's..

Other than the height issue, there is no other suspect that nails the "Cooper" profile so well.

The FBI rejected Hahneman in 1972 for some reason, either it was legit or it wasn't. We can't assess it because we don't know.

Hahneman hid out at his cousin's home in Honduras, his cousin Martinez Ordonez with diplomatic immunity was a prominent Honduran politician and had just become a member of the UN, 71-77..  searching diplomatic cables Ordonez was pro US, called upon to vote supporting US foreign policy. Later supported US troops in Honduras. The ransom money mysteriously turned up a year later with no explanation. The claim was Hahneman had cancer and six months to live, is that why he got a light sentence..  did Ordonez and Hahneman cut a deal?? A high level influential CIA asset in the UN and Honduras may have been a higher priority than ID'ing Cooper. After all, Cooper died in the jump... (FBI narrative)

.