Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 1635770 times)

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #240 on: June 15, 2014, 11:08:16 AM »
 Ok, after talking with Robert on DZ I was able to confirm my feelings about the "testimony" of Carolyn Powell being deceptive at the points I have presented in the past. I also watched the ending of Decoded again with the part of Bernie Geestman. it appears that he thinks Robert is lying, he thinks it's possible Kenny was Cooper based on the sketch. the panel seems to have believed his story. Buddy went further stating he wasn't the accomplice. If you take Bernie out of the equation, it's another surgical strike against the story.

Bernie Geestman........nothing seems to point to him being an accomplice.
Margaret Geestman.....(now Miller) can no longer state anything if her ex-husband is not the accomplice.
Carolyn Powell............Has been found not credible in anything said.
Robin Powell...............A heavy drinker with a violent background can not be credible in any statement.
Dawn J Androsko.......It's real hard to believe she borrowed $5,000 paying it back in two years. this is in 1972, a very large sum to loan out to someone you have barely known.

How do we know whether or not Bernie & Margaret are not trying to get each other into trouble? we have no idea of there past together, what caused the separation.

The "Evidence"
The House.............what seemed to be an important part of the story has fell apart due to the lack of research showing the house was not purchased in cash as stated almost anywhere this story has been, be it books, websites, letters to the FBI etc.
Property...............documents appear to be labeled incorrectly by either the wrong address, to stating they were purchased for $10.
The Bank Account...Kenny had large sums of money in his accounts. some try to show the reason from land deals after the crime. this is also incorrect. Kenny was involved with land dating back into the early 60's. he sold a plot containing over a dozen acres at $17,000 a piece. actually there is close to a hundred grand missing if you wish to go that route.
The wood In The Attic.. This can have many other options to it, first it's claimed to be a hiding spot for the money. I fail to connect this for the simple fact of when you put Formica on a surface you don't take the original wood off unless the surface is damaged. why would Kenny put Formica on a piece of wood he is placing in the attic? the kitchen was removed when it was turned into a commercial status. the inside was changed. that piece could of found it's way up there for many reasons. I noticed repairs done, new insulation. this means it never had it, or the old was removed. it could have been used to stand on, who knows, but I seriously doubt it's been there since 1971. the kitchen being destroyed shows why the countertop has jagged edges on parts of it because it was ripped out with no care given for it's appearance.
The Airstream Trailer This can convince many perhaps, but this is basing everything on Cooper wanting to jump where they think he did. evidence seems to point at Cooper wanting out of the plane early, so why is everyone gathering around a possible location that might not have been in the plan?
The Description Kenny Christiansen doesn't match the FBI's description of Cooper. Robert Blevins is trying by using the passengers statements, this is not a good idea because they didn't have a reason to remember him, that's why they differ. Tina stated she had to look up at Cooper. this is extremely hard to get around since Tina, and Kenny are the same height. his skin tone is off, he was bald on the top.
The Te Clip according to reports Dawn J Androsko identified the tie clip, not the tie, being the same Kenny had. I thought Dawn barely knew Kenny after the crime? how could barely know someone, get $5k, and recognize the clip?
The Toupee According to Roberts report Dawn also knew Kenny wore a toupee prior to the crime, but stopped wearing it. again, how could she know all of this if she barely knew him? this is familiar with the now exposed statement from Carolyn Powell who also didn't know much about Kenny, and was proven to have false statements.
The Stamp/Coin Collection..To date, nobody has seen one piece of evidence supporting any valuable collection. prices from $400k, $300k, to $30k have been mentioned. even at 10 grand you would think some sort of documentation would be present. once again, the word speculation comes up.

Please explain where anyone can say this is the best set of circumstances in history?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 04:26:26 PM by shutter »
 

Offline MarkBennett

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
  • Thanked: 26 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #241 on: June 15, 2014, 12:19:24 PM »
One of the questions I always ask is "did the FBI give consideration to this suspect?".  That is not to say they spent a lot of time or money investigating, but did the case agent take a serious look at that suspect.

For example, in the case of Duane Weber the answer is definitely yes.  Larry Carr gave Jo his cell number (at least he said she had it during a post on DZ).   So, he looked to see if her case had merit.  And, we know he had Duane's case file on his desk, because he said so on DZ.

On Kenny Christiansen, I have to believe they did also.  Carr and Gray  did more than just talk about the case together -- Carr let Gray in to review FBI files and Gray implied they still keep in touch -- even saying Gray "might" show up at last year's symposium.  At the time Gray had four suspects that he writes about in his book --KC, Weber, McCoy and Dayton.  So, I'm sure Carr at least reviewed the evidence against each.

You sum it up well, Shutter.  We spend time talking about KC and it's surprising how little evidence there is there.  There is almost none.

So, on the FBI, I take a "watch what they do, not what they say" approach.  And for KC and those others, they did not feel a need to research further.

And, that is the thing that really makes me wonder about Marla's story.  She only had a small snippet of information (childhood memories and things her father told her -- I'll grant that she added some other childhood memories that most likely were not accurate).   But, she had something -- maybe told the FBI some information that matched evidence not made public -- but something that made the FBI investigate L.D. further when it saw no need to do so for the other suspects.

And, Marla's 15 minutes of fame appears to be over.  You don't hear about her anymore and she doesn't respond to Facebook posts.  I wrote to her inviting her to come to this forum, but she never responded.



« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 04:05:37 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #242 on: June 15, 2014, 12:36:15 PM »
I would have to say the FBI would be failing in many ways if they didn't look at public suspects. remember it probably takes a minimal amount of time to piece things together that take us much longer. I'm sure they picked up on the problems Robert sent in his PDF. these guys do this for a living. they are trained to look for important details that others may think are large. we only have bits and pieces of what the FBI does. I'm also positive they have information on Cooper that's withheld for the purpose of weeding out KC's, and LD's etc. Carr admits to this on the radio program I have in the vault.

I realize Robert put a lot of time and effort into this, but he doesn't see things as others do. he actions speak volumes about his personality. look how long it took him to admit what I put him through yesterday. the facts about KC just don't add up, nor do his "witnesses"

That's interesting news about Marla. perhaps she failed in getting someone to pickup her book. basically she left all those people in the dark on Facebook? that also speaks volumes. it's a sign of frustration in my opinion. maybe she publicly crossed the line with the CIA story, and the FBI sent a love letter to her, I don't know, but obviously something catastrophic occurred somewhere. I was waiting for another Marla bomb to drop :)

The FBI is looking for proof. a bunch of people screaming things is never heard, or gets lost in the garble. they want hard solid evidence. they try and show it, and it appears to look good, but most of the time it ends up false, or misleading, or inaccurate. sadly Robert will not be able to repair the damage sent to the FBI.

Also, I don't pick on people as Robert claims. I push them into a corner, and give them an option to explain. most of the time the truth comes out when I use this tactic. most try and divert this tactic into me picking on them, but I keep pushing.

If you see the edit on your post Mark. that was me, I posted my last edit under yours by mistake.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 07:18:27 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • Thanked: 141 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #243 on: June 16, 2014, 06:44:53 PM »
Is it true that Florence Shaffner positively ID'd Coffelt as Cooper at one time? I would like to see a picture of him if someone can post one, I couldn't find one. I don't think he was the guy based on what I have read, but if she ID'd him, it stands to reason that he must bear a strong resemblance to Cooper?


I'm not sure about that, but she did say something about KC& LD. I 'll have to look into that,but that's probably why Georger has said in the past that she ID's everyone or something like that. I'm sure he will let us know.


here is Gossett



« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 07:59:52 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #244 on: June 16, 2014, 08:32:40 PM »
Now, to try an answer your question from DZ. I'm guessing, but it should make some sense. it appears Lyle was close with his brother, I'm guessing he was there a lot until the end. So was Bernie. now, Lyle handled the estate of KC's correct. that means he was probably close with Carolyn, and probably know's Robin Powell as well. the story was started by Lyle, how do we know he didn't tell them a lot of this information prior to anyone snooping around? he's the one who said he looks like Cooper, I'm guessing he read up on Cooper, and formed the story from there. someone has been feeding them information about Kenny. the biggest mistake is telling someone you barely know them, and follow by revealing personal things noticeable only by close friends. at the start you only had one person with interest other than trying to prove KC was Cooper. that would be Lyle. he really tried to get in touch with that producer and paid big bucks for it. another guess would be he convinced Skipp that a book should be written about Kenny. enter Robert Blevins. he pushes the hell out of it, taking the word of many of Kenny's friends, and running with it. I also find it hard that Lyle didn't know anything about the hijacking. he's close to his brother who works for Northwest? really?

Basically you are telling me that all the main witnesses Robert has never said a word to anyone about this, they don't have any other friends? people talk, a lot! if they kept it that guarded, I'm sure they would of never spoken to anyone outside of the circle of trust! including Skip, Gray, and Blevins. Bernie was not comfortable about any of it. I could see that. he also made it very clear that Robert was lying. the end result was exactly what I thought they would say. I was a little disappointed that the final conclusion was they thought he was Cooper. I don't think they would have that opinion today. I still feel Lyle is behind all of this. another option is, lots of people would like to read stories that include themselves. Lyle in an inventor, an idea man. the hamster is constantly running on the wheel. people say a lot of stupid things in order to gain attention. why would anyone hide from the show after they were aware it would be on National television. the gig would be up if any truth was really in the story. I'm almost positive the FBI watch the show. they have the PDF, they have the book..........and....nothing..Medic, 10cc D5W Stat, he going into V-fib.....clear :)

Selling your house an leaving no forward means squat. the FBI would find you in a heartbeat. Marla claimed the samething with LD, and Dewy. both of them have paper trails all over. they weren't hiding from anything.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 10:21:54 PM by shutter »
 

Offline EVickiW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Thanked: 28 times
    • NamUs:  (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System) Missing since September 1971 - Melvin Wilson
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #245 on: June 17, 2014, 01:32:59 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Is it true that Florence Shaffner positively ID'd Coffelt as Cooper at one time? I would like to see a picture of him if someone can post one, I couldn't find one. I don't think he was the guy based on what I have read, but if she ID'd him, it stands to reason that he must bear a strong resemblance to Cooper?


Here is an article about Coffelt. There is a picture within the article.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

In Skyjack by Geoff Gray, the index shows he investigates Coffelt.  I do not have the book, but this information can be found on page 262.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • Thanked: 141 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #246 on: June 17, 2014, 11:14:36 PM »
About the witnesses in the KC story: RMB says he can prove  that Kenny and Bernie were together the week of the hijacking. But, did any of his witnesses actually see them together??? Kenny aparently said he was with Bernie that week. But, if they were behind Norjack, why would Kenny admit being with his accomplice??? Bottom line: even his witnesses are going on hearsay...at best.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #247 on: June 18, 2014, 08:44:00 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
About the witnesses in the KC story: RMB says he can prove  that Kenny and Bernie were together the week of the hijacking. But, did any of his witnesses actually see them together??? Kenny aparently said he was with Bernie that week. But, if they were behind Norjack, why would Kenny admit being with his accomplice??? Bottom line: even his witnesses are going on hearsay...at best.

He can't prove anything. he is basing everything on what he has been told. that's only the start of an investigation. you need to back up what people say, or claim. we don't have that with this suspect. it's basically set up to sound good. remember he said they were missing that weekend. Robert was lost in the woods for days. what if a crime occurred during this period and he matched the description? if I use Roberts thoughts I could fry him. it's called a victim of circumstance. what we think might be proof is probably not what the FBI thinks. they don't jump on things simply because someone makes a claim. you need as I said to back up what you are claiming. unfortunately the PDF was riddled with problems that I'm sure they noticed.

I'm going through something that is similar to what Robert is claiming. I'm being accused of something I didn't do. this was all done without my knowledge. in my opinion it's exactly what is being done to Kenny. he has no say in it. Now, if you can prove something about it, then it's a different story. I don't have a problem with someone thinking they might know who Cooper is. I do have a problem with someone claiming things as proof without properly checking what one is claiming. Vicki is doing the right things by checking all the angles. looking at possibilities of what happened to her father. you want to try a box things in. if you are missing a corner of the box. your not doing it right.

It's really sad that this much hostility can come from a 40 year old unsolved hijacking.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 08:45:38 AM by shutter »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #248 on: June 18, 2014, 03:23:12 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hey Georger:

4th grade teach decided to ditch the book, Blast, and send all of them into the trash.  The kiddies spotted too many factual errors, too many made-up fables, and an author that kept repeating only one piece of alleged witness accounting that formed the basis for the entire book.  Smart bunch, those 4th graders.  They decided to go back to "cat in the hat" series which offers better information.
snoop.

The book Blast and its author aside (a total waste of time and diversion) the Cooper case, according to Sluggo, has had some 50+ case agents over its history. Some of those agents developed a :theory of the case:. Carr did. Ng may have one in as much as I am told he has reviewed many documents in the case file? I wish someone along the way had bothered to interview and document the different :theories of the case: by case agent.

Carr's theory, so far as I understand it, was:
1. Cooper intended to bail early close to Seattle.
2. Cooper was not an experienced sky diver - as compared with McCoy.
3. Cooper transferred the money to one of the parachute containers and tied it around his waste with shroud line.
4. The flight path depicted by the FBI map is correct.
5. Cooper's bomb was a fake - nothing but road flares.
6. Oscillations and Bump were two distinct events with different causes.
7. Cooper may have bailed as late as 8:14 south of Ariel, perhaps near Orchard, WA.
8. Cooper's survival is an open question.
9. There may be a connection between the name Cooper wrote and the European comic hero, "Dan Cooper".
10. The Cooper money found at Tina Bar is due to hydrological events in the Columbia basin.         

Other case agents had different theories!
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #249 on: June 18, 2014, 05:24:41 PM »
I agree with a lot of Carr's theories. I think all the jumpers except McCoy never made it to the ground with the money. I think one lost it at the point of exit. the probability of losing the money statistic wise is extremely high. McCoy seems to have been different in many ways. he seems to have landed exactly where he wanted, he was good enough to be a backseat driver for a 727. he stayed on top with constant updates with everything going on with the plane, and the weather. the guy knew what he was doing. I'm not so sure about Cooper. one can only speculate what his knowledge was, but signs are there showing the possibility of him not being as bright as McCoy. so, this in my opinion could also lower his life span during the jump. McCoy's mouth, like all criminals got him identified.

I don't know if Carr misquoted Ratczak, but this claims the bump was felt 10-15 minutes after the last contact. this puts the plane in Oregon. upstream from the resting place of the money, with several contributaries involved. the question remains whether or not Coopers body could go unnoticed in the river, unless the body went under shortly after splash down. it's seems it's possible to splash into the many surrounding lakes, and the bag was released several years later, and floods moved it. that's a little wild, but what isn't here? I guess Cooper could have made it, and lost the money, went home, brushed himself off claiming in his head, "I'll never do that again" while standing in the unemployment line. :)

I like some of the suspects, but something keeps telling me he can't be found this way. we might have everything wrong about Cooper. he doesn't have to be ex-military, he doesn't have to have chute skills. he doesn't really have to be anyone except some fool with a wild idea, and hardly any knowledge they pin him with. the working of the stairs could have been known by a few I give that, but an idea man, like Lyle, or Bob Knoss could easily build something like this in there heads, and act on it. it's just something that rattles around thinking about it. who would of thought a woman would go on television showing what appeared to be honest emotions about her missing children, and put them in a car and let it roll into a lake? you just never know sometimes.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:27:40 PM by shutter »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #250 on: June 20, 2014, 03:55:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
About the witnesses in the KC story: RMB says he can prove  that Kenny and Bernie were together the week of the hijacking. But, did any of his witnesses actually see them together??? Kenny aparently said he was with Bernie that week. But, if they were behind Norjack, why would Kenny admit being with his accomplice??? Bottom line: even his witnesses are going on hearsay...at best.

Who are these NWA people RMB says are flying to Auburn for his 'presentation' ? Anyone know? He said they were people from the NWA History Society? What is their real significance if any ?



He can't prove anything. he is basing everything on what he has been told. that's only the start of an investigation. you need to back up what people say, or claim. we don't have that with this suspect. it's basically set up to sound good. remember he said they were missing that weekend. Robert was lost in the woods for days. what if a crime occurred during this period and he matched the description? if I use Roberts thoughts I could fry him. it's called a victim of circumstance. what we think might be proof is probably not what the FBI thinks. they don't jump on things simply because someone makes a claim. you need as I said to back up what you are claiming. unfortunately the PDF was riddled with problems that I'm sure they noticed.

I'm going through something that is similar to what Robert is claiming. I'm being accused of something I didn't do. this was all done without my knowledge. in my opinion it's exactly what is being done to Kenny. he has no say in it. Now, if you can prove something about it, then it's a different story. I don't have a problem with someone thinking they might know who Cooper is. I do have a problem with someone claiming things as proof without properly checking what one is claiming. Vicki is doing the right things by checking all the angles. looking at possibilities of what happened to her father. you want to try a box things in. if you are missing a corner of the box. your not doing it right.

It's really sad that this much hostility can come from a 40 year old unsolved hijacking.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #251 on: June 20, 2014, 04:02:56 PM »
I think it's the guy that was on Decoded. Robert needs strength to try and prove employee's didn't know each other. he always runs with loopholes, or just plain out gets things wrong, or over exaggerates the issue. 10 seconds isn't enough time to ID the chute according to him. the passengers gave a description he runs with. as I mentioned before. he takes the worse case and runs with it, while also taking the best case. nothing in between.
 

Offline MarkBennett

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
  • Thanked: 26 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #252 on: June 21, 2014, 01:13:47 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think it's the guy that was on Decoded. Robert needs strength to try and prove employee's didn't know each other. he always runs with loopholes, or just plain out gets things wrong, or over exaggerates the issue. 10 seconds isn't enough time to ID the chute according to him. the passengers gave a description he runs with. as I mentioned before. he takes the worse case and runs with it, while also taking the best case. nothing in between.

I posted on DZ asking Robert what new information he discovered since his last PDF.  If you read the excerpt, it's just speculation.  He has said previously he had new information about the property transactions.   I asked for new information, but  I'm not going to hold my breath.
 

Offline EVickiW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
  • Thanked: 28 times
    • NamUs:  (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System) Missing since September 1971 - Melvin Wilson
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #253 on: June 21, 2014, 01:25:37 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think it's the guy that was on Decoded. Robert needs strength to try and prove employee's didn't know each other. he always runs with loopholes, or just plain out gets things wrong, or over exaggerates the issue. 10 seconds isn't enough time to ID the chute according to him. the passengers gave a description he runs with. as I mentioned before. he takes the worse case and runs with it, while also taking the best case. nothing in between.

According to this article on Tina Mucklow Larson,she flew overseas to japan after the hi-jacking. She most certainly would have worked with Kenny in those five years.

Tina says "“I mostly flew to Japan the last five years,”.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #254 on: June 21, 2014, 09:51:53 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think it's the guy that was on Decoded. Robert needs strength to try and prove employee's didn't know each other. he always runs with loopholes, or just plain out gets things wrong, or over exaggerates the issue. 10 seconds isn't enough time to ID the chute according to him. the passengers gave a description he runs with. as I mentioned before. he takes the worse case and runs with it, while also taking the best case. nothing in between.

According to this article on Tina Mucklow Larson,she flew overseas to japan after the hi-jacking. She most certainly would have worked with Kenny in those five years.

Tina says "“I mostly flew to Japan the last five years,”.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Yep, and wouldn't you think they would make sure an inside job was looked into since they were on the hook for 200 grand....