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[Bruce A. Smith]

It might be time to revisit this episode of Norjak with Grotz, Tallis, and Rubin. They were rookies, but they were there, and are all still alive.

[Shutter]

On the other hand, especially where its a breaking case and the FBI is involved, I have yet to see one instance where the FBI and local LE did not set up some kind of road watch or closure whether it be bank robberies, shootings, or even (as we know) in the situation of the fast-breaking Ingram money find where the Fazio's road was closed ... It's standard operating procedure in such matters, if it can be done.

Bank robberies and the Ingram's find were pretty easy to block off, they knew where Tina Bar was, and they get a good idea where the bank robber's went. a plane, no so easy, or at least they didn't acknowledge quick enough with a location. it might of taken some time to put everything together and by that time decided not to box him in due to timing, or they didn't know exactly where he was on the ground at that time of evening? 

1971, in an area not very populated. how much LE was in the area during the evening? 2015, 50 cops can be in the area...

[Shutter]

It might be time to revisit this episode of Norjak with Grotz, Tallis, and Rubin. They were rookies, but they were there, and are all still alive.

They ain't getting any younger. time is no longer on our side!

[georger]

It might be time to revisit this episode of Norjak with Grotz, Tallis, and Rubin. They were rookies, but they were there, and are all still alive.

You might ask them when a search zone for Cooper was first established - the night of the hijacking after 8:30pm ? And who provided that info.

I thought we had previously established that H flew north to the Woodland area to search vs. flying south chasing 305? Maybe they did both? 

[Bruce A. Smith]

Page 47 from Himms' book, from Worcester, presumably:

"While the 727 was flying too slow for the supersonic jets trying to be chase planes, it was too fast for the Oregon Army National Guard helicopter with the two FBI agents that had taken of from Portland International Airport. Lt. Col. Gayle Goyins flew south, hoping to stay close to the jet, and as the airliner came over the  Portland area, the two agents and two pilots aboard the Huey couldn't help wondering if pieces of the airliner might come floating down on them if Cooper pulled the pin on his bomb.


"...The Huey could only fly at a top speed of 120 knots, but the four men knew they had one advantage that fixed wing chase planes would not have, mobility. If Cooper came down anywhere near them, and they knew it, they could be on top of them within minutes.


"..But they never saw the plane. When the "Return to Base" recall came after about 30 minutes of flying time, the two military and two law enforcements officers aboard the Huey were disappointed. Flying that night was a high pucker operation to begin with, and now they had to end it without contact. Flight 305 was 60 miles south of the helicopter when the chopper turned back, and the gap was opening."

From Ralph, p. 41-42:

"Gayle asked:

"'What are we going to do, Ralph?'

"'We're going to follow that 727. That bastard may have jumped already, but I want to track them anyway, in case he's still aboard. I'd sure like to pick him up.'

"...We strapped ourselves into the big Huey, and watched as Bill and Gayle went through the preflight....

"We lifted off, did a sharp climbing turn to the right, and headed for the position where we thought the jet might be. I looked down just as we passed over southwest Portland and my home in West Linn.

"'Happy Thanksgiving,' I thought."

[Bruce A. Smith]

I thought we had previously established that H flew north to the Woodland area to search vs. flying south chasing 305? Maybe they did both?

According to Himms in his book, the only searching that RH did was by air. He flew his fixed-wing aircraft over LZ-A on T-Day morning and remained aloft for 2.5 hours. Friday was rained-out, and general aerial surveillance resumed late Saturday. On Monday, the ground and aerial search was called off in LZ-A, and the Woodland Command center closed. On Tuesday, RH and a fleet of aircraft flew south through Oregon, over Victor 23. Ralph does not mention what he did specifically, if anything, on the case on Friday, Saturday or Sunday. He does state that FBI agents swarmed PDX immediately after the skyjacking seeking witnesses.

Himms also says that he began sending daily reports to DC, presumably over the holiday weekend.  Page 64:

"By the second day of the investigation we had Norm Belfrey locked in as lead-card agent, logging all the information flowing in and out of the office...

"...I just had to kind of fly and hang loose, because as far as the office was concerned, I had to know everything, had to absorb al the information, recognize what was to be done and see that it was done. That was the responsibility of the case agent."

[georger]

I thought we had previously established that H flew north to the Woodland area to search vs. flying south chasing 305? Maybe they did both?

According to Himms in his book, the only searching that RH did was by air. He flew his fixed-wing aircraft over LZ-A on T-Day morning and remained aloft for 2.5 hours. Friday was rained-out, and general aerial surveillance resumed late Saturday. On Monday, the ground and aerial search was called off in LZ-A, and the Woodland Command center closed. On Tuesday, RH and a fleet of aircraft flew south through Oregon, over Victor 23. Ralph does not mention what he did specifically, if anything, on the case on Friday, Saturday or Sunday. He does state that FBI agents swarmed PDX immediately after the skyjacking seeking witnesses.

Himms also says that he began sending daily reports to DC, presumably over the holiday weekend.  Page 64:

"By the second day of the investigation we had Norm Belfrey locked in as lead-card agent, logging all the information flowing in and out of the office...

"...I just had to kind of fly and hang loose, because as far as the office was concerned, I had to know everything, had to absorb al the information, recognize what was to be done and see that it was done. That was the responsibility of the case agent."

(1) Two witnesses (Snowmman post) say Scott informed RH at RH's retirement party (?) that 305 overflew Woodland just before Cooper bailed. (2) Likewise, the NWA-FBI Search map (black and white map) uses Woodland as the north-west plot mark which begins the primary search area. (3) The searches near Ariel beginning after 11/24/71 are just south of Woodland ?

Admittedly, Scott is supposedly telling RH that they overflew Woodland, years after 1971! However, the first NWA-FBI Search map uses Woodland as the nor-west cornerstone of the first search area south of Woodland, with searches beginning right after 11-24-71;  that is documented.

I may have the rest confused. That would not be a surprise, frankly. Somewhere, is a post or an article or something which we all read that describes people in a helicopter looking for lights on the roads, campfire, or anything else unusual ... and I thought this was on the evening of 11/24/71 ?  I recall that in this article or post the comment is made that due to the fog, the search was useless so they turned around eventually and came back to PDX. This sounds like a "search" as opposed to the idea of "trying to chase 305 down" which was preposterous on it's face! If I recall this article or post or whatever it was correctly, they searched not only near Woodland, they searched a route meaning they searched in several areas? But, I cannot find that document in my files or anywhere at DZ ... so maybe I dreamed this! Maybe somebody else recalls the article Im referring to ?

It strikes me as a little odd that Scott would wait until 1980 to convey (to RH) his crucial info about "we flew over Woodland!" when in fact NWA identified Woodland almost immediately as evidenced by the fact (Solderlind) uses Woodland as the cornerstone of the first NWA-FBI Search map! Maybe Scott gave his info to NWA first in 1971 and only thought to tell RH (who was not the lead agent in the case) until1980? Who knows. The fact is, Woodland sit in a prominent position almost as the pivot-point for the first actual searches that were conducted, in 1971.

And of course the corollary to all of this is the fact that Woodland "is" west of V23. And Tina Bar and the relevant part of the Columbia River Basin one might surmise might have been involved in a deposit on Tina Bar, sits south of Woodland.

I think it is a safe assumption that the first estimate of Cooper's drop zone came fairly quickly (from NWA) the evening of 11/24/71 perhaps only minutes after the crew's report of oscillations and no further contact with Cooper in the back. Somebody at NWA used Woodland in their equation, in any event, in time to be searching near there the next day, at the very least?

Snowmman doubted for a time that RH was even on a helicopter, or that anyone in their right minds would try to intercept 305 much less chase it down when 305 was already at least 60 miles south of PDX at the very time any helo is leaving PDX! It would make a helluva lot more sense to go north and search the area people were identifying as the area Cooper likely bailed in, near Woodland. Like Snowmman, I dont buy the idea that Scott didn't have a good idea of where they were around the time they thought Cooper bailed, near Woodland. And I think Scott conveyed his info to NWA very quickly; he didn't wait until 1980! 

I'm not saying RH and his pilots did not try a run south to look for 305, but it was futile on it's face, and I am very suspicious to know the total amount of time that helo was in the air because that amount of time may exceed any southern run they made, or could have made, and still returned back to PDX to be logged in at Time = . The total time may indeed include time for being elsewhere? And was there more than one trip logged? More than one helo - were two in the air?

But, we know Woodland figured heavily in the first flight path map NWA generated, because it is there in black and white for searches beginning the next day. That can't be denied.

<edit>
I know there is a document, article or post, that describes people searching at night in a helo north of Portland. The post is specific and describes searchers looking for traffic lights on roads, any suspicious lights or activity, campfires, any sign of activity or anything suspicious etc, and they could not continue because of the adverse conditions so they came back to PDX. I thought they went north and were searching in the Woodland area. ?  I thought this involved FBI agents and Himmelsbach? This was posted somewhere by somebody since 2008 ?   
 

[377]

"Snowmman doubted for a time that RH was even on a helicopter, or that anyone in their right minds would try to intercept 305 much less chase it down when 305 was already at least 60 miles south of PDX at the very time any helo is leaving PDX! It would make a helluva lot more sense to go north and search the area people were identifying as the area Cooper likely bailed in, near Woodland. Like Snowmman, I dont buy the idea that Scott didn't have a good idea of where they were around the time they thought Cooper bailed, near Woodland. And I think Scott conveyed his info to NWA very quickly; he didn't wait until 1980!  "

+1

377

[Bruce A. Smith]

A couple thoughts about the above commentary:

1. When did the ground search begin? I still don't know for sure, Georger. 

You say:
"But, we know Woodland figured heavily in the first flight path map NWA generated, because it is there in black and white for searches beginning the next day. That can't be denied."

To begin: what day, exactly, is your "next day" ? Thanksgiving Day? If so, who did the searching on Thanksgiving Day? McDowell says it wasn't him or the Clark County Sheriff's Department. Himms says he started looking at 9:30 am on T-Day in his plane, and he apparently knew enough to look in the Ariel-Amboy area even though he writes that the LZ-A was not determined until Thanksgiving Day afternoon. Himms also says that a combined aerial and ground search of LZ-A was slated to begin at 7:30 am on Friday.


2. Woodland was part of LZ-A?

You say, G:
"...Admittedly, Scott is supposedly telling RH that they overflew Woodland, years after 1971! However, the first NWA-FBI Search map uses Woodland as the nor-west cornerstone of the first search area south of Woodland, with searches beginning right after 11-24-71;  that is documented."

Can you tell us where this is documented? I'm not being argumentative here, but rather, curious.

To my best knowledge, Woodland was only bandied-about, and I read about it in general terms in commentaries about the ground search. As for Tosaw, he only described the LZ in general terms and says that check points were established on the main reads between Woodland and Vancouver on the night of the skyjacking. However, McDowell says he doesn't know who would have manned them, which leaves the WSP as the only viable option.

When the LZ-A was established, it is my understanding that it was a rectilinear area approximately 3-4 miles wide and six miles long emanating from the Ariel-Amboy area and spreading southwest to Battleground. This boxey zone would put Woodland just to the west of the primary search area. No? Which made Scotty's alleged comments at RH's shin-dig in 1980 so surprising. No?

3. Searching for strange lights by air in Woodland-Ariel area on Wednesday evening-

You say:
"I know there is a document, article or post, that describes people searching at night in a helo north of Portland. The post is specific and describes searchers looking for traffic lights on roads, any suspicious lights or activity, campfires, any sign of activity or anything suspicious etc, and they could not continue because of the adverse conditions so they came back to PDX. I thought they went north and were searching in the Woodland area. ?  I thought this involved FBI agents and Himmelsbach? This was posted somewhere by somebody since 2008?"

I say:
I only recall a vague commentary that someone should've/could've/I would've flown over the Woodland area and look for unusual activity. BTW: Campfires? Really? In the rain, in November? I seriously doubt it...although Bobby B might do something like that...)

But I don't remember seeing anything definitive about an aerial search at night. Further, do helos fly at night and in the rain and fog? I live next to McChord, and helos fly around here with regularity, but I don't ever recall hearing any fly overhead in rainy weather.

[Bruce A. Smith]

"Snowmman doubted for a time that RH was even on a helicopter, or that anyone in their right minds would try to intercept 305 much less chase it down when 305 was already at least 60 miles south of PDX at the very time any helo is leaving PDX! It would make a helluva lot more sense to go north and search the area people were identifying as the area Cooper likely bailed in, near Woodland. Like Snowmman, I dont buy the idea that Scott didn't have a good idea of where they were around the time they thought Cooper bailed, near Woodland. And I think Scott conveyed his info to NWA very quickly; he didn't wait until 1980!  "

+1

377

That's not really the Ralph Himmelsbach that I know of, or read about. He was, and is, much more of a cowboy. It strikes me as true that RH would want to jump into a helo and try to catch 305. That's what he says in his book, and it rings true to me.

However, what he did after his 30 minute helo-ride-to-hell-and-back is anyone guess. By his own admission, he hung around a lot. Remember, he wasn't in charge of the Portland investigation - his SAC Julius Mattson was. RH saw his job as primarily absorbing data from a variety of sources, and then when the clouds parted, jumping in his plane and looking for DB Cooper from the skies.

That's the Ralph Himmelsbach I know.

As for what Scotty knew, when he knew it, and what he told others - that is a toss-up. Scotty was clearly very taciturn, judging by his VERY few words to the FBI during his Reno debriefing. In the video clip of events afterwards, Scotty displayed himself to be a total company man, and deflected questions from the media back to NWO.

I think Georger once said that NWO kept its employees on a short leash, and that is definitely my observation of their actions in Norjak.

Did 305 really fly over Woodland? Whew. That would be tough to prove. If they did fly over Woodland, did Scotty tell anyone? NWO? FBI? Soderlind? Scotty strikes me as the kind of guy ya gotta pry information out of with a crowbar.

Consider: Scotty said Woodland. Rataczak says Washougal, 20-30 miles to the east. What if they both disagreed with each other, would they have risked professional criticism or censure for disagreeing with a fellow pilot so completely on such an important subject? The emotional pressures upon Scott and Rataczak could have been enormous here.

[377]

"Consider: Scotty said Woodland. Rataczak says Washougal, 20-30 miles to the east. What if they both disagreed with each other, would they have risked professional criticism or censure for disagreeing with a fellow pilot so completely on such an important subject? The emotional pressures upon Scott and Rataczak could have been enormous here."

Pilot with the fourth stripe is always right. Ask Airtwardo. 

377

[Shutter]

"Consider: Scotty said Woodland. Rataczak says Washougal, 20-30 miles to the east. What if they both disagreed with each other, would they have risked professional criticism or censure for disagreeing with a fellow pilot so completely on such an important subject? The emotional pressures upon Scott and Rataczak could have been enormous here."

Pilot with the fourth stripe is always right. Ask Airtwardo. 

377

Does either one of them accept the flight path as it's seen now? we have two pilots with different views, and a path that not adding up...

[georger]

"Consider: Scotty said Woodland. Rataczak says Washougal, 20-30 miles to the east. What if they both disagreed with each other, would they have risked professional criticism or censure for disagreeing with a fellow pilot so completely on such an important subject? The emotional pressures upon Scott and Rataczak could have been enormous here."

Pilot with the fourth stripe is always right. Ask Airtwardo. 

377

And where did they actually search? Based on who and what?

That plane could have been driven by a mouse and still they would have searched at ___________! That had nothing to do with politics whether you believe or like it, or not!

Let me guess: you believe in the Washougal theory?     

[Robert99]

Further, do helos fly at night and in the rain and fog?

Yes.

[Robert99]

Like Snowmman, I dont buy the idea that Scott didn't have a good idea of where they were around the time they thought Cooper bailed, near Woodland. And I think Scott conveyed his info to NWA very quickly; he didn't wait until 1980! 

Georger and Snowmman are correct.  There is no way that Scott could not have had an excellent idea of where the airliner was.  It's part of the crew's job to keep track of that.

The airliner had two VORs, two DMEs, and two ADFs.  They could put various combinations of these instrument indications on the Horizontal Situation Indicators for each of the pilots stations.  Even just a casual glance at the HSIs would mean that they could estimate their positions to within less than about one nautical mile.  And each nautical mile represented less than 20 seconds of flying time.

In a fairly recent speech at an NWA retirees function, Rataczak made some remark like "I made a call over the radio for the controllers to mark their charts/radars."  That was because the crew thought Cooper had just jumped.  This call is nowhere to be seen in the ATC or ARINC transcripts and that means that it was redacted.