New Forum & News Updates

[Chaucer]

I congratulate Doc Edwards on getting his FOIA requests fulfilled.

R99, thanks for corroborating what Georger told me about the Citizen Sleuths.

Jag, why do you think no one from the FBI is camping out in the LV basement? From my point of view, the FBI has few people who would take that kind of initiative.

Good stuff as always, Bruce. Seems like Larry was a bit combative at first, but you handled it with aplomb.

Regarding the cigarette butts, hair sample, and Vegas:  in the FBI's mind the case it closed. No practical reason for them to waste time and energy for a 50 year old closed case.

[JAG]

I congratulate Doc Edwards on getting his FOIA requests fulfilled.

R99, thanks for corroborating what Georger told me about the Citizen Sleuths.

Jag, why do you think no one from the FBI is camping out in the LV basement? From my point of view, the FBI has few people who would take that kind of initiative.

At this stage of the game, i.e. the case has kind of been closed or put on ice since 2016, I understand that nobody is looking for the butts.  But rewinding to SA Carr's heyday as the lead NORJAK agent,  if he thought that there was a reasonable chance that the cigarette butts were in the Las Vegas basement, how do you not go and flip the tables, knock shelves over at the last real chance to uncover Cooper's identity via DNA?  The potential to grab the DNA makes all of the other conundrums of this case i.e. money fragments/to dredge or not to dredge/the flight path/eye color/age/special forces vs common fool/pressure bump/ moot ! 

I'm sorry, but something just isn't sitting well or adding up to me with some of the answers. 

But man is this fun and sure does beat a cross word puzzle as someone else once said !

[Bruce A. Smith]

Cops who travel out of their jurisdiction to rummage through basement files, talk to the old hands or re-visit eye witnesses like Tina, are called "grinders" in LE parlance. Larry is not a grinder. Nor Curtis Eng. Nor Frank Montoya, Jr, the guy who actually closed the case before he became a consultant for NBC-TV. In my view, there are very few grinders actually doing police work these days.

The only real grinder that I can think of is Lt. Joe Kenda of the Colorado PD Homicide Division. He retired recently because of the strain, and now tells his stories on streaming channels. See "American Detective" on Prime, or "Homicide Hunter" on Hulu. The latter is my favorite.

As for ideal grinders, see "Bosch" on Prime. Although fiction, the stories are based on actual cops and cases covered by an LA investigative journalist named Michael Connelly. Superb show in all facets.

[JAG]

In the New England region, large sandwiches are also referred to as "grinders".  Where I am from, we call them "subs" or "heroes".   

My favorite fictional grinder is still probably Lt. Colombo.

I think I had some unfair expectations for LC and I give him credit for doing the interview with someone he views in a somewhat adversarial
light.  I do remember FJ posting the 302 about the butts being destroyed.  When LC said that they may still be in the Las Vegas basement, I gave it
too much weight.

So just to close the butts discussion, even though there was a 1998 302 stating that the butts were destroyed, multiple case agents tried again to look for the butts.  So they either weren't aware of the 1998 302, had some doubts about it or just wanted to be double and tripple check--ok I got it.

[snowmman]

re: Bruce interviewing Larry Carr.

Bruce: I thought your questions were pretty light. Although, it appears Carr really isn't interested in conversation, more about pushing his line of thought.

The obvious followup question you missed would have been:
"If Cooper was 100% a no-pull, how did the money arrive on Tena Bar ?"

Does Carr think Cooper no-pulled over the Columbia?

[Bruce A. Smith]

From what Carr has said to me and others, I don't Larry has a real solid opinion on how the money got to T-Bar or where exactly Cooper jumped. After all, he told me that the trail of clues in Norjak ends when Cooper leaves the plane. To me, that means that the money and the tie are irrelevant to Larry.

What I was most interested in my interview with Larry was to learn more about him as an investigative cop. How he thinks, what motivates him, what he cares about.

To really dig into the questions of what Larry holds to be true or probable about the money find is really a discussion for something like CC22 - where we can really dive into his beliefs and theories. I hope he attends.

[Bruce A. Smith]

It has come to my attention that there is a possible smear campaign underway to discredit me and my writings on DB Cooper. Apparently, this has surfaced first at the Wikipedia page on Coop.

For those who are interested, here is my curriculum vitae on DBC:

____________________________________

The 3rd Edition of my book: DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking, is considered by many to be the "bible" of Norjak. Darren Schaefer, host of The Cooper Vortex podcast, is perhaps the most notable expert to anoint my work in such fashion. Author Drew Beeson is another Cooper expert to similarly describe my work.

Earlier editions of DB Cooper and the FBI were self-published at Amazon in 2015 and 2016. The 3rd Edition was published by Moonshine Cove Press of South Carolina in November 2021, and they have been publishing about 25 books per annum for the past ten years. Such longevity, in my view, indicates a solid, professional operation.

Not only is my book the only case study of the DB Cooper investigation in the pantheon of Cooper literature, at 500-plus pages it is a comprehensive and substantive work. Further, I have been an investigative journalist since 2006, and a freelance writer before then, having been published in many regional and national publications such as Nexus Magazine, The Golden Thread, and Creations Magazine.

Regarding my Cooper expertise, perhaps more telling is the fact that I have been in six documentaries on Cooper - the most recent being the 4-part Netflix series: "DB Cooper - Where Are You?" My favorite Cooper appearance is the HBO/BBC docu that came out in 2020, titled: "The Mystery of DB Cooper." I was also featured in the History Channel's 2016 epic series: "DB Cooper - Case Closed?"

In addition, I have been in two Cooper episodes of Josh Gates' Expedition Unknown series (2016 and 2021), and one episode in "History's Greatest Mysteries," (2019) where I talk in-depth about the Amboy Chute and the FBI's LZ for Cooper.

I got my start towards Cooper fame in the 2009 National Geographic docu "The Skyjacker Who Got Away," although my appearance was brief and un-credited. Nevertheless, I did meet Geoffrey Gray for the first time - on set, so to speak - as we were drinking beers at the Ariel Tavern while Nat Geo/ Edge West Productions was filming the Formans and the Barb Dayton Story.

Perhaps most intriguingly, I was an early paid consultant on Tina's new movie, "Nod If You Understand," although she probably has never been informed of that dynamic by our mutual colleagues, the movie's producers Joey McFarland and Dawn Birschwhal.

My writings are cited throughout the Cooper literature, such as my work on Tina, as found the Thomas Colbert's The Last Master Outlaw.

Lastly, my online news magazine, The Mountain News-WA, is also widely read, with a daily readership of 200-400 folks, mostly on Cooper. In fact, The Mountain News-WA was the first to publish Galen Cook's photos of Tina Mucklow in 2011, while she was still in her 30-year stretch of silence. Those pix earned the Mountain News-WA up to 40,000 hits per day.

[Robert99]

It has come to my attention that there is a possible smear campaign underway to discredit me and my writings on DB Cooper. Apparently, this has surfaced first at the Wikipedia page on Coop.

For those who are interested, here is my curriculum vitae on DBC:

____________________________________

The 3rd Edition of my book: DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking, is considered by many to be the "bible" of Norjak. Darren Schaefer, host of The Cooper Vortex podcast, is perhaps the most notable expert to anoint my work in such fashion. Author Drew Beeson is another Cooper expert to similarly describe my work.

Earlier editions of DB Cooper and the FBI were self-published at Amazon in 2015 and 2016. The 3rd Edition was published by Moonshine Cove Press of South Carolina in November 2021, and they have been publishing about 25 books per annum for the past ten years. Such longevity, in my view, indicates a solid, professional operation.

Not only is my book the only case study of the DB Cooper investigation in the pantheon of Cooper literature, at 500-plus pages it is a comprehensive and substantive work. Further, I have been an investigative journalist since 2006, and a freelance writer before then, having been published in many regional and national publications such as Nexus Magazine, The Golden Thread, and Creations Magazine.

Regarding my Cooper expertise, perhaps more telling is the fact that I have been in six documentaries on Cooper - the most recent being the 4-part Netflix series: "DB Cooper - Where Are You?" My favorite Cooper appearance is the HBO/BBC docu that came out in 2020, titled: "The Mystery of DB Cooper." I was also featured in the History Channel's 2016 epic series: "DB Cooper - Case Closed?"

In addition, I have been in two Cooper episodes of Josh Gates' Expedition Unknown series (2016 and 2021), and one episode in "History's Greatest Mysteries," (2019) where I talk in-depth about the Amboy Chute and the FBI's LZ for Cooper.

I got my start towards Cooper fame in the 2009 National Geographic docu "The Skyjacker Who Got Away," although my appearance was brief and un-credited. Nevertheless, I did meet Geoffrey Gray for the first time - on set, so to speak - as we were drinking beers at the Ariel Tavern while Nat Geo/ Edge West Productions was filming the Formans and the Barb Dayton Story.

Perhaps most intriguingly, I was an early paid consultant on Tina's new movie, "Nod If You Understand," although she probably has never been informed of that dynamic by our mutual colleagues, the movie's producers Joey McFarland and Dawn Birschwhal.

My writings are cited throughout the Cooper literature, such as my work on Tina, as found the Thomas Colbert's The Last Master Outlaw.

Lastly, my online news magazine, The Mountain News-WA, is also widely read, with a daily readership of 200-400 folks, mostly on Cooper. In fact, The Mountain News-WA was the first to publish Galen Cook's photos of Tina Mucklow in 2011, while she was still in her 30-year stretch of silence. Those pix earned the Mountain News-WA up to 40,000 hits per day.

Bruce, can you provide the title to the Wikipedia page you mentioned?  I can't find the page that you are apparently talking about.

[Bruce A. Smith]

I'll try.

[andrade1812]

You have to look at the article's "Talk" page to find that discussion on Bruce's cred.

[Olemisscub]

Question for everyone…

Is there a reason why this forum has 500 page mega threads? If someone wants to make a Richard McCoy thread or a thread just about the reserve chutes, is there anything preventing them from doing so? It seems like this forum would be much more discussion and research friendly if all the information and knowledge we have wasn’t contained within a single giant mega thread. Going forward wouldn’t having individual threads make discussing and parsing through all of this information much easier to digest? For example, if right now I wanted to read what everyone has to say about Wolfgang, I have to comb through 500 pages or tediously use the search function. That sucks. It would be so much nicer if all the discussion about Wolfgang or whomever was contained in one place. Same with the parachutes for example or Earl Cossey, etc. So why not going forward we have a Braden thread and a Christensen thread, etc, and if someone wants to make a Klansnic thread then they can do so.

I’ve been a member of this forum for over five years now and I’m just curious if there’s a reason we aren’t doing that. Is it simply because no one has started a Ted Braden thread, for example?

Personally, I think the mega threads might also scare off new people who might want to join in the conversation because it just looks so daunting to see a 500 page thread.

[Robert99]

You have to look at the article's "Talk" page to find that discussion on Bruce's cred.

Bruce and Andrade, it is interesting to note that the remarks apparently started on July 24th just the day after Bruce posted his interview with Carr.  There appears to be two posters that do not seem to have posted anywhere about Cooper previously or have an Internet base.  Could this be just one disgruntled poster who is carrying on a conversation with himself?

[Bruce A. Smith]

Might be, but he is not alone. My book was not placed upon a list of suggested reading on DB Cooper by a syndicated freelancer writing about the Netflix special.

[Parrotheadvol]

Question for everyone…

Is there a reason why this forum has 500 page mega threads? If someone wants to make a Richard McCoy thread or a thread just about the reserve chutes, is there anything preventing them from doing so? It seems like this forum would be much more discussion and research friendly if all the information and knowledge we have wasn’t contained within a single giant mega thread. Going forward wouldn’t having individual threads make discussing and parsing through all of this information much easier to digest? For example, if right now I wanted to read what everyone has to say about Wolfgang, I have to comb through 500 pages or tediously use the search function. That sucks. It would be so much nicer if all the discussion about Wolfgang or whomever was contained in one place. Same with the parachutes for example or Earl Cossey, etc. So why not going forward we have a Braden thread and a Christensen thread, etc, and if someone wants to make a Klansnic thread then they can do so.

I’ve been a member of this forum for over five years now and I’m just curious if there’s a reason we aren’t doing that. Is it simply because no one has started a Ted Braden thread, for example?

Personally, I think the mega threads might also scare off new people who might want to join in the conversation because it just looks so daunting to see a 500 page thread.

I think that Shutter is the only person that can start a new topic. There is a section on suspects at the website ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ) but I think that Kenny Christiansen is the only suspect addressed there. I think that is just more of an informative section as opposed to a discussion section, I don't think there is an option for comment on any of the topics there, though I could be wrong as I have never spent a lot of time there. I could see the benefit of having a discussion of individual suspect for the benefit of newer users to the site who may not be familiar with them, or more importantly, have incorrect assumptions or thoughts on them, but in the grand scheme of things I doubt there would be a lot of activity there. Most of the folks here don't really have a favored suspect. Though, many of those suspects still had interesting stories.

[Chaucer]

Question for everyone…

Is there a reason why this forum has 500 page mega threads? If someone wants to make a Richard McCoy thread or a thread just about the reserve chutes, is there anything preventing them from doing so? It seems like this forum would be much more discussion and research friendly if all the information and knowledge we have wasn’t contained within a single giant mega thread. Going forward wouldn’t having individual threads make discussing and parsing through all of this information much easier to digest? For example, if right now I wanted to read what everyone has to say about Wolfgang, I have to comb through 500 pages or tediously use the search function. That sucks. It would be so much nicer if all the discussion about Wolfgang or whomever was contained in one place. Same with the parachutes for example or Earl Cossey, etc. So why not going forward we have a Braden thread and a Christensen thread, etc, and if someone wants to make a Klansnic thread then they can do so.

I’ve been a member of this forum for over five years now and I’m just curious if there’s a reason we aren’t doing that. Is it simply because no one has started a Ted Braden thread, for example?

Personally, I think the mega threads might also scare off new people who might want to join in the conversation because it just looks so daunting to see a 500 page thread.

I think that Shutter is the only person that can start a new topic. There is a section on suspects at the website ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ) but I think that Kenny Christiansen is the only suspect addressed there. I think that is just more of an informative section as opposed to a discussion section, I don't think there is an option for comment on any of the topics there, though I could be wrong as I have never spent a lot of time there. I could see the benefit of having a discussion of individual suspect for the benefit of newer users to the site who may not be familiar with them, or more importantly, have incorrect assumptions or thoughts on them, but in the grand scheme of things I doubt there would be a lot of activity there. Most of the folks here don't really have a favored suspect. Though, many of those suspects still had interesting stories.

This is true. I believe Shut is concerned about members creating their own threads and it devolving into a chaotic mess. I also believe he thinks it is better to keep the major aspects of the case in their own threads rather than having potentially redundant threads.

I asked him about creating a separate Tena Bar Money Find thread, but he felt that was unnecessary.

As an alternative, I would suggest using the search tool to find information that has been previously discussed.