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[EU]

I agree that there's a lot we don't know. What were Cooper's intentions/expectations coming in? He was probably expecting to get a sport chute, as in steerable/controllable. Had he planned for another, more known and hospitable landing site? Once he was in the position he was, I agree that he didn't really have a lot of choice but to go. Doing this thing in the first place means he was either ballsy, crazy, or some combination. I still can't completely discount the possibility that he didn't jump over Washington, but somewhere else later, like on the approach to Reno. He could have messed with the stairs to fake out the crew. Once they thought he was gone, how close attention did they pay to other 'bumps' that might have signaled an exit. Flight is a fluid environment, there are a lot of turbulent bumps and dips that occur normally.

As for the jump as it was... I think the odds are greatly in his favor that he gets under an open canopy. The question for me is his landing. If he lands in water, he's got a serious problem. If not, the question is what specific type of terrain did he land in? Does he get injured to the point where he can't hike or crawl out?

Would I do the jump with the gear and in the conditions assumed? At my age today, I seriously doubt it. At 25, maybe to probably. At 45, hard to say, but still maybe.

One thing I've asked and have not seen an answer to is, does anybody know what the moon was that night? As in, how much ambient light was there?

I've heard the DBC-jumped-near-Reno theory before. However, let's not forget the money was found at Tena Bar. Indeed, very near a Western Flight Path 8:13 jump time.

The money find at Tena Bar is the Holy Grail. It answers a lot if we're willing to listen.

[Shutter]

I thought of the fake jump time years back. I thought he could of used the cord rigging it to pull the stairs up. the money presents a problem with this theory..

The weather was overcast with 3 layers of clouds. the pilots statements were flying through the soup around the jump time. I doubt anything could be seen. I think the moon was half?

[Chaucer]

Let's reverse your question. Instead of asking, "Would you do the Cooper jump?" I think it is more useful to ask, "Who would do the Cooper jump?"

That puts us back in the ballpark of smokejumpers and commandos - men who have been trained to jump into the wilds at night, with tons of gear on them.

It also puts us in the ballpark of novices who don't understand the implications of their jump. Or men without hope with nothing to lose.

Your question doesn't always circle back to experts.

On the DZ many jumpers disagreed with Carr and reply...this guy has 30 years in the sport..November 25, 2007

"You guys keep saying how violent the jump was and youre quite sure he died. I'm quite certain me or any number of posters to this thread and literally hundreds of jumpers that never come here could jump and survive.

Theres a huge knowledge base you know nothing of. such as things to look for on a night jump where to land.  what does a roadway look like at night with and without traffic. what does a waterway look like at nite. tree landing in a forest? smoke jumpers do it all the time. I've done 220 night jumps with rounds and squares and my knowledge base on the subject could be called extensive"

Again, the people saying this are EXPERTS and/or EXPERIENCED jumpers. Of course they think Cooper's jump was no big deal and they could pull it off. We don't know Cooper's level of expertise. He could have been a rank amateur who bit off more than he could chew.

[Bruce A. Smith]

Bruce, I don't see a reason to be intimidated by asking Carr those questions. I'm not friends with him and haven't been on Facebook in over 3 years or I would ask him with no problem?

I've reached out to Larry - after he sent me a Facebook friend request - but he has never responded to me. I wouldn't say I'm intimidated by him. Rather, I am circumspect on how best to make contact with Larry.

[Bruce A. Smith]

It also puts us in the ballpark of novices who don't understand the implications of their jump. Or men without hope with nothing to lose.

Your question doesn't always circle back to experts.

True.

But both possibilities need to be considered - novices with no understanding, and experts at the top of their game.

That consideration takes us to the next question: Who best would ask the pilots to set the wing flaps at one of only a few predetermined settings for a 727? A novice with no understanding of what he is doing, or a pro?

[Chaucer]

Let's reverse your question. Instead of asking, "Would you do the Cooper jump?" I think it is more useful to ask, "Who would do the Cooper jump?"

That puts us back in the ballpark of smokejumpers and commandos - men who have been trained to jump into the wilds at night, with tons of gear on them.

It also puts us in the ballpark of novices who don't understand the implications of their jump. Or men without hope with nothing to lose.

Your question doesn't always circle back to experts.

True.

But both possibilities need to be considered - novices with no understanding, or experts at the top of their game.

That consideration takes us to the next question: Who best would ask the pilots to set the wing flaps at one of only a few predetermined settings for a 727? A novice with no understanding of what he is doing, or a pro?

Knowing about the operations of a jetliner doesn’t mean you’re an experienced jumper.

Also, Cooper didn’t even know how to lower the aft stairs. He never seemed to check the packing cards. He seemed wholly unconcerned with what chutes he was given. That doesn’t seem like a pro to me.

The fact remains that we don’t know what Cooper’s level of skydiving expertise was - and the jump he attempted wasn’t easy.

[Bruce A. Smith]

One thing I've asked and have not seen an answer to is, does anybody know what the moon was that night? As in, how much ambient light was there?

Georger told us several years ago that the moon was slightly more than half, and gaining. I believe that is called a "gibbous" moon.

I also think there were no clouds above 305. Hence, DBC could see the moon. Marla makes a point of that and says that Uncle LD triangulated Mt. Adams, Mt. Rainier, and Mt. Hood to ascertain where he was when he jumped.

[Bruce A. Smith]

That consideration takes us to the next question: Who best would ask the pilots to set the wing flaps at one of only a few predetermined settings for a 727? A novice with no understanding of what he is doing, or a pro?

Knowing about the operations of a jetliner doesn’t mean you’re an experienced jumper.

Again, my dear Chaucer, let's reverse your statement: "What does knowing the advanced metrics of flight operations tell us?

[Bruce A. Smith]

Also, Cooper didn’t even know how to lower the aft stairs.

Again, let's invert your statement: "What does Cooper's not-knowing how to lower the aft stairs tell us?"

Here are the quick answers I can think of:
1. DB was a dumb ass.
2. DB was suicidal who didn't give a s**t.
3. DB was too chicken to jump off the Tacoma Narrows Bridge like most normally depressive people when they get really suicidal. (See the bridge jumping debate at the DZ in 2010 that got the cops and CPS in Florida involved. Georger and I were personally involved in this, as I remember. I talked with the mom, G talked with LE, as I recall.)
4. DB was too lazy to read that section of the operations manual in Blg 9-10 at Boeing.
5. His mommy forgot to tell him about the stairs.
6. DB had the hots for Tina and needed an excuse to keep her on board. (This is my personal favorite.)
7. DB never had to open the stairs before because someone else had always done that when he had jumped previously at Moses Lake, Laos, Cambodia and North Vietnam.
8. DB was more of an "Ideas Guy," and not so much an "Hands-On-Details-Guy."

[dudeman17]

Also, Cooper didn’t even know how to lower the aft stairs.

Not sure that's true. You guys know the documents better than I do, but I remember it saying that he was 'having trouble' with them. I took that to possibly mean that he was expecting them to lower all the way, which they didn't, they were being held up by the airflow.

See the bridge jumping debate at the DZ in 2010 that got the cops and CPS in Florida involved. Georger and I were personally involved in this, as I remember. I talked with the mom, G talked with LE, as I recall.

Was this about a suicide or a base jump?

[EU]

The Moon on November 24th, 1971.

[Shutter]

'Waxing' means the Moon's illumination is growing, and 'Crescent' means less than half of the Moon is illuminated. This moon phase signifies intention.

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[Chaucer]

That consideration takes us to the next question: Who best would ask the pilots to set the wing flaps at one of only a few predetermined settings for a 727? A novice with no understanding of what he is doing, or a pro?

Knowing about the operations of a jetliner doesn’t mean you’re an experienced jumper.

Again, my dear Chaucer, let's reverse your statement: "What does knowing the advanced metrics of flight operations tell us?

What DOESN’T it tell us?

Whether or not he survived.

[Chaucer]

Also, Cooper didn’t even know how to lower the aft stairs.

Not sure that's true. You guys know the documents better than I do, but I remember it saying that he was 'having trouble' with them. I took that to possibly mean that he was expecting them to lower all the way, which they didn't, they were being held up by the airflow.

He had to have Tina show him how to lower them.

[georger]

That consideration takes us to the next question: Who best would ask the pilots to set the wing flaps at one of only a few predetermined settings for a 727? A novice with no understanding of what he is doing, or a pro?

Knowing about the operations of a jetliner doesn’t mean you’re an experienced jumper.

Again, my dear Chaucer, let's reverse your statement: "What does knowing the advanced metrics of flight operations tell us?

What DOESN’T it tell us?

Whether or not he survived.

what it doesnt tell us is the amount of illumination at different points along the flight path at different times ...

what EU has posted is meaningless.

... see former posts about this at DZ ... use search function.