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[Shutter]

This guy appears to have been calm cool and collected....watch the ground quickly approach...

One of the comments in the video posted below..

Evgeny Chirkov
4 years ago
This has happened in Russia. From the pilots words he got a parachute malfunction (bad line twist), so he decided to cut away. But when he reached to his cut away  handle he realized that reserve handle got stock inside the suite and he couldn't reach it. He tried to get to the reserve handle without success. So he decided to cut away anyways and dive in head down to gain speed and hope for AAD to fire. Fortunately AAD fired up and saved his live (As I understood the problem with handle stuck in the suite happened because he tried someone's else suite, that was a size larger and didn't fit him perfectly. So don't mess up with wrong suite size




..

[dudeman17]

Shutter, you're not helping the cause of trying to convince Chaucer that Cooper might possibly have survived, haha.

That first incident is pretty straightforward. He got a good opening, but apparently couldn't release the right brake. (When you pack the parachute, you stow the brakes at half, mostly because they open better that way and don't surge. After opening, you release the brakes and get on with it.) That left him unable to normally control the parachute, and would have affected his landing. Looks like he spent a while trying to get it unstuck. Normally you'd cut away and go to reserve a bit higher, but maybe he was also a base jumper and comfortable with lower altitudes, and wanted his main to land closer and be easier to retrieve. That sound he made after the reserve opened sounded like frustration that the cost of the reserve repack would cut into his beer budget. This wasn't a near death experience. More akin to getting a flat tire on your car.

The second one is a bit weirder. Properly assembling the rig to the wing suit should not allow the reserve handle to get stuck inside the suit. If the suit was baggy on him, and a bit of that bagginess covered the handle, that should have been easy to get past. Cutting away and swooping for the AAD fire is ballsy.

Chaucer, these are outlier incidents and not the norm. I use the car analogy a lot, but it's apt. Over the course of your driving career, you'll see a lot of people on the side of the road with flat tires or other breakdowns that don't really threaten their lives. And occasionally you'll hear of horrific crashes. But the vast majority of times you get in your car, you get where you're going just fine.

[Shutter]

Good one, that's why I posted it here. it wasn't really posted to relate to the case..

You left out R99 who also believes he was a no pull....

[Chaucer]

Shutter, you're not helping the cause of trying to convince Chaucer that Cooper might possibly have survived, haha.

That first incident is pretty straightforward. He got a good opening, but apparently couldn't release the right brake. (When you pack the parachute, you stow the brakes at half, mostly because they open better that way and don't surge. After opening, you release the brakes and get on with it.) That left him unable to normally control the parachute, and would have affected his landing. Looks like he spent a while trying to get it unstuck. Normally you'd cut away and go to reserve a bit higher, but maybe he was also a base jumper and comfortable with lower altitudes, and wanted his main to land closer and be easier to retrieve. That sound he made after the reserve opened sounded like frustration that the cost of the reserve repack would cut into his beer budget. This wasn't a near death experience. More akin to getting a flat tire on your car.

The second one is a bit weirder. Properly assembling the rig to the wing suit should not allow the reserve handle to get stuck inside the suit. If the suit was baggy on him, and a bit of that bagginess covered the handle, that should have been easy to get past. Cutting away and swooping for the AAD fire is ballsy.

Chaucer, these are outlier incidents and not the norm. I use the car analogy a lot, but it's apt. Over the course of your driving career, you'll see a lot of people on the side of the road with flat tires or other breakdowns that don't really threaten their lives. And occasionally you'll hear of horrific crashes. But the vast majority of times you get in your car, you get where you're going just fine.

Oh, I know it’s not the norm. Otherwise, who the hell would do it if you had a great than 50% chance of dying?

I honestly don’t know if Cooper lived or died during the jump. I think there’s evidence both ways. My point is that Cooper’s jump, given the conditions and circumstances of it, was difficult, dangerous, and his survival is not a certainty.

I think it is SA Carr who asked this rhetorical question:

Would you replicate Cooper’s jump - at night, suboptimal weather, unknown terrain, no jump suit or boots, no altimeter, military style chute with limited steering, from a jet going almost 200mph - if you knew that if you survived you’d get $200,000?

I wouldn’t!

[EU]

Oh, I know it’s not the norm. Otherwise, who the hell would do it if you had a great than 50% chance of dying?

I honestly don’t know if Cooper lived or died during the jump. I think there’s evidence both ways. My point is that Cooper’s jump, given the conditions and circumstances of it, was difficult, dangerous, and his survival is not a certainty.

I think it is SA Carr who asked this rhetorical question:

Would you replicate Cooper’s jump - at night, suboptimal weather, unknown terrain, no jump suit or boots, no altimeter, military style chute with limited steering, from a jet going almost 200mph - if you knew that if you survived you’d get $200,000?

I wouldn’t!

What choice does DBC have? He either jumps or goes to jail for 40 years--a life sentence given his age.

Given that choice, what would you do?

[Chaucer]

I wasn’t referring to Cooper. The rhetorical question was directed at people who think Cooper’s jump was survivable.

Would you attempt Cooper’s jump with all attending conditions if you knew that if you survived you’d get 200K? If not, then you believe that the jump is too dangerous and not worth it. The point is to underscore the increased probability of failure inherent in Cooper’s jump.

Again, it’s not my question. It was raised by SA Carr years ago.

[EU]

Yes I understand.

An interesting aspect of the question worth considering is DBC himself. Meaning, obviously DBC considered the question and decided to jump. Doesn't this suggest that there was a basis for his decision? Is it not reasonable to deduce that DBC was experienced as a jumper therefore considered his survivabilty odds as high?

[Shutter]

I wasn’t referring to Cooper. The rhetorical question was directed at people who think Cooper’s jump was survivable.

Based on stats and those who jumped out of a 727 appear to show good odds of survival. I can't say for sure either way. McNally had zero experience and jumped a lot faster than 305. If I was a skydiver, yes, I would do the jump. try jumping out of a plane at night when bullets are flying. who would do that?

Most criminals work in the background. they don't like attention. this is a little different because you put yourself right in the open. that's crazy enough and takes a lot of balls to do something like that. it takes a lot of balls to do a lot of crimes but putting yourself right in harms way is dangerous. you got the nads to do that, jumping out of the plane becomes secondary..hell, McCoy was part of a team looking for himself....balls of steel, right there...

[Chaucer]

Yes I understand.

An interesting aspect of the question worth considering is DBC himself. Meaning, obviously DBC considered the question and decided to jump. Doesn't this suggest that there was a basis for his decision? Is it not reasonable to deduce that DBC was experienced as a jumper therefore considered his survivabilty odds as high?

It is equally possible that Cooper was a novice who didn’t understand the risk he was taking by jumping. Or someone at the end of his rope who didn’t care if he lived or died.

It’s impossible to play armchair psychologist on a man we know so little about.

[Bruce A. Smith]

It’s impossible to play armchair psychologist on a man we know so little about.

I wouldn't say impossible.

Let's reverse your question. Instead of asking, "Would you do the Cooper jump?" I think it is more useful to ask, "Who would do the Cooper jump?"

That puts us back in the ballpark of smokejumpers and commandos - men who have been trained to jump into the wilds at night, with tons of gear on them.

Thus, the best question to ask is: "Who has already done the Cooper jump?" and go from there.

[Bruce A. Smith]

Would you attempt Cooper’s jump with all attending conditions if you knew that if you survived you’d get 200K? If not, then you believe that the jump is too dangerous and not worth it. The point is to underscore the increased probability of failure inherent in Cooper’s jump.

Again, it’s not my question. It was raised by SA Carr years ago.

One of Larry's failings has been to not be curious enough about the jump to go beyond the Cossey Kool-Aid Club's perspective. Larry's opinion that DBC was a tumbling, bumbling, fool with frozen fingers probably says more about Larry and his lack of knowledge of the case than it does about DB Cooper's skill levels, or his performance.

I would bet that Larry still doesn't know who Norman Hayden is. Anybody wanna make that bet with me? I put a hundred down.

Another hundred goes to the guy with balls big enough to ask Larry directly on his Facebook page....

[Shutter]

On the DZ many jumpers disagreed with Carr and reply...this guy has 30 years in the sport..November 25, 2007

"You guys keep saying how violent the jump was and youre quite sure he died. I'm quite certain me or any number of posters to this thread and literally hundreds of jumpers that never come here could jump and survive.

Theres a huge knowledge base you know nothing of. such as things to look for on a night jump where to land.  what does a roadway look like at night with and without traffic. what does a waterway look like at nite. tree landing in a forest? smoke jumpers do it all the time. I've done 220 night jumps with rounds and squares and my knowledge base on the subject could be called extensive"

[Shutter]

Carr doesn't say all 4 chutes came from Cossey...

Sept. 7, 2007

The chutes were secured through NWA's Seattle flight operations. the flight ops manager called an individual from Pacific aviation who in turn called an individual he knew who had two back packs. this person put the back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to boeing field and then onto SeaTac by private car.

Bruce, I don't see a reason to be intimidated by asking Carr those questions. I'm not friends with him and haven't been on Facebook in over 3 years or I would ask him with no problem?

[dudeman17]

I agree that there's a lot we don't know. What were Cooper's intentions/expectations coming in? He was probably expecting to get a sport chute, as in steerable/controllable. Had he planned for another, more known and hospitable landing site? Once he was in the position he was, I agree that he didn't really have a lot of choice but to go. Doing this thing in the first place means he was either ballsy, crazy, or some combination. I still can't completely discount the possibility that he didn't jump over Washington, but somewhere else later, like on the approach to Reno. He could have messed with the stairs to fake out the crew. Once they thought he was gone, how close attention did they pay to other 'bumps' that might have signaled an exit. Flight is a fluid environment, there are a lot of turbulent bumps and dips that occur normally.

As for the jump as it was... I think the odds are greatly in his favor that he gets under an open canopy. The question for me is his landing. If he lands in water, he's got a serious problem. If not, the question is what specific type of terrain did he land in? Does he get injured to the point where he can't hike or crawl out?

Would I do the jump with the gear and in the conditions assumed? At my age today, I seriously doubt it. At 25, maybe to probably. At 45, hard to say, but still maybe.

One thing I've asked and have not seen an answer to is, does anybody know what the moon was that night? As in, how much ambient light was there?

[dudeman17]

You left out R99 who also believes he was a no pull....

He has jumps. He should know better. Ha!