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[georger]

A 2018 article by CoinWorld You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login    says that 35 more serial numbers were found by conservators working on the Ingram money, than the FBI previously counted. That brings the Ingram find to $6500.

Anyone actually know what a Cooper bill is selling for these days? EU offered $25k. Ive seen $65k in print. Anyone actually know? 

[Bruce A. Smith]

How's Jo Weber?

Anybody know?

Anybody have her current contact information? The phone numbers and email address I have are not current, or she is unresponsive.

I have been contacted by an academician who is researching Duane and has asked for my assistance in speaking with Jo. So far, nada.

[georger]

A 2018 article by CoinWorld You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login    says that 35 more serial numbers were found by conservators working on the Ingram money, than the FBI previously counted. That brings the Ingram find to $6500.

Anyone actually know what a Cooper bill is selling for these days? EU offered $25k. Ive seen $65k in print. Anyone actually know?

Flyjack replies:

 This is a common and often repeated misunderstanding and needs to be clarified. This happened in 2008 when 35 additional serial numbers were identified from fragments. It was not 35 additional bills, just newly identified numbers from fragments.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The TBAR bills were 3 packets of 100, a few missing from one but in the same order as given to Cooper per micro recording. The FBI did not identify every bill by the identifiable serial number but they had the sequence.

PGCS identified previously unrecorded serial numbers from fragments within the 3 packets, they did not find additional bills.

Claiming more than $6000 was found on TBAR is erroneous. The FBI had the sequences and it could easily determine the number of bills without identifying each and every serial number.

REPLY:   Every bill given Cooper had a serial number. Every serial number and the order of the numbers were recorded by the bank. The FBI attempted to identify serial numbers in the Ingram find and made a "count" of the total. The total was estimated at $5800 and that total was published. The count was based on the serial numbers identified! The FBI also examined the order of serial nubers in the Ingram find and determined the order of the serial numbers was still the same as when the money was prepared and given to Cooper! 

If anyone comes along and is able to identify more serial numbers previously not identified by the FBI, that changes the count.

This aint rocket science. This is simple arithmetic and counting.

I can't imagine why FLyjack is trying to complicate this ... except he likes to argue and set up his own interpretations and agenda so he will appear brilliant and special. Flyjack will never back down from his agendas because his whole identity is wrapped up in them - its a personal thing in Flyjack's identity including his insistence there were paper straps in the Ingram money and termites ate the edges of the bills!  The termites were at a particular address ... on Earth!   

[RaoulDuke24]

A 2018 article by CoinWorld You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login    says that 35 more serial numbers were found by conservators working on the Ingram money, than the FBI previously counted. That brings the Ingram find to $6500.

Anyone actually know what a Cooper bill is selling for these days? EU offered $25k. Ive seen $65k in print. Anyone actually know?

Flyjack replies:

 This is a common and often repeated misunderstanding and needs to be clarified. This happened in 2008 when 35 additional serial numbers were identified from fragments. It was not 35 additional bills, just newly identified numbers from fragments.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The TBAR bills were 3 packets of 100, a few missing from one but in the same order as given to Cooper per micro recording. The FBI did not identify every bill by the identifiable serial number but they had the sequence.

PGCS identified previously unrecorded serial numbers from fragments within the 3 packets, they did not find additional bills.

Claiming more than $6000 was found on TBAR is erroneous. The FBI had the sequences and it could easily determine the number of bills without identifying each and every serial number.

REPLY:   Every bill given Cooper had a serial number. Every serial number and the order of the numbers were recorded by the bank. The FBI attempted to identify serial numbers in the Ingram find and made a "count" of the total. The total was estimated at $5800 and that total was published. The count was based on the serial numbers identified! The FBI also examined the order of serial nubers in the Ingram find and determined the order of the serial numbers was still the same as when the money was prepared and given to Cooper! 

If anyone comes along and is able to identify more serial numbers previously not identified by the FBI, that changes the count.

This aint rocket science. This is simple arithmetic and counting.

I can't imagine why FLyjack is trying to complicate this ... except he likes to argue and set up his own interpretations and agenda so he will appear brilliant and special. Flyjack will never back down from his agendas because his whole identity is wrapped up in them - its a personal thing in Flyjack's identity including his insistence there were paper straps in the Ingram money and termites ate the edges of the bills!  The termites were at a particular address ... on Earth!   

They didn't find additional bills and it does not change the estimated amount of $5,800. They were just the serial numbers of some of the already-counted bills for which the serial number was previously unable to be read.

The $5,800 estimate was not based on counting the serial numbers (if that had been the case, the estimate would have been far lower). It was based on the fact that there were 3 bundles and each bundle contained between X number and Y number of bills. (They intentionally varied the number of bills in each bundle in an attempt to make the ransom appear hastily gathered.) For the majority of the recovered bills, the serial number was unable to be seen because so many of the bills were clumped together. The work that these folks did was simply identify some of those previously unknown serial numbers. But it does not change the amount of money that was found. 

[georger]

Somebody suddenly raised the issue of paper straps vs rubber bands clear back in 2012, bringing everything to a sudden halt causing Carr to scramble and find and interview people ... and the conclusion was rubber bands only - no paper straps were involved in the packaging of the money for Cooper. Flyjack surfaced later saying Carr was wrong, in the strongest terms. The bank employee who personally prepared the money into bundles, and a bank security official were interviewed in addition to the Ingrams and others . . .

Carr nor anyone else ever explained who or what had suddenly brought this to the surface.

I have to wonder today if it wasn't Flyjack who brought this to the surface back in 2012, for some reason, through some channel. I can't think of anyone else who ever questioned this issue - with such dogged ferocity insisting that Carr and everyone he interviewed was "wrong", to put it in polite terms ? 
 

[georger]

A 2018 article by CoinWorld You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login    says that 35 more serial numbers were found by conservators working on the Ingram money, than the FBI previously counted. That brings the Ingram find to $6500.

Anyone actually know what a Cooper bill is selling for these days? EU offered $25k. Ive seen $65k in print. Anyone actually know?

Flyjack replies:

 This is a common and often repeated misunderstanding and needs to be clarified. This happened in 2008 when 35 additional serial numbers were identified from fragments. It was not 35 additional bills, just newly identified numbers from fragments.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The TBAR bills were 3 packets of 100, a few missing from one but in the same order as given to Cooper per micro recording. The FBI did not identify every bill by the identifiable serial number but they had the sequence.

PGCS identified previously unrecorded serial numbers from fragments within the 3 packets, they did not find additional bills.

Claiming more than $6000 was found on TBAR is erroneous. The FBI had the sequences and it could easily determine the number of bills without identifying each and every serial number.

REPLY:   Every bill given Cooper had a serial number. Every serial number and the order of the numbers were recorded by the bank. The FBI attempted to identify serial numbers in the Ingram find and made a "count" of the total. The total was estimated at $5800 and that total was published. The count was based on the serial numbers identified! The FBI also examined the order of serial nubers in the Ingram find and determined the order of the serial numbers was still the same as when the money was prepared and given to Cooper! 

If anyone comes along and is able to identify more serial numbers previously not identified by the FBI, that changes the count.

This aint rocket science. This is simple arithmetic and counting.

I can't imagine why FLyjack is trying to complicate this ... except he likes to argue and set up his own interpretations and agenda so he will appear brilliant and special. Flyjack will never back down from his agendas because his whole identity is wrapped up in them - its a personal thing in Flyjack's identity including his insistence there were paper straps in the Ingram money and termites ate the edges of the bills!  The termites were at a particular address ... on Earth!   

They didn't find additional bills and it does not change the estimated amount of $5,800. They were just the serial numbers of some of the already-counted bills for which the serial number was previously unable to be read.

The $5,800 estimate was not based on counting the serial numbers (if that had been the case, the estimate would have been far lower). It was based on the fact that there were 3 bundles and each bundle contained between X number and Y number of bills. (They intentionally varied the number of bills in each bundle in an attempt to make the ransom appear hastily gathered.) For the majority of the recovered bills, the serial number was unable to be seen because so many of the bills were clumped together. The work that these folks did was simply identify some of those previously unknown serial numbers. But it does not change the amount of money that was found.

You may be correct.  So, the estimate of $5800 is based on the fact of three "bundles". Bands seen by the Ingrams identified a bundle. Each bundle contained random numbers of bills  between X number and Y number of bills. Somebody knew the range of numbers between x and y twenties per bundle. Thus $5800 estimate. Any new serial numbers found were already included in the estimate of three bundles.

That's roughly $1933.3333 per bundle, or 96.67 $20 dollar bills per bundle. 

Where do Flyjack's paper straps between the bills come in? What is a packet?

Weren't there start and stop marks on the bank's list made to identify the serial numbers placed in each random bundle?     

[RaoulDuke24]

A 2018 article by CoinWorld You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login    says that 35 more serial numbers were found by conservators working on the Ingram money, than the FBI previously counted. That brings the Ingram find to $6500.

Anyone actually know what a Cooper bill is selling for these days? EU offered $25k. Ive seen $65k in print. Anyone actually know?

Flyjack replies:

 This is a common and often repeated misunderstanding and needs to be clarified. This happened in 2008 when 35 additional serial numbers were identified from fragments. It was not 35 additional bills, just newly identified numbers from fragments.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The TBAR bills were 3 packets of 100, a few missing from one but in the same order as given to Cooper per micro recording. The FBI did not identify every bill by the identifiable serial number but they had the sequence.

PGCS identified previously unrecorded serial numbers from fragments within the 3 packets, they did not find additional bills.

Claiming more than $6000 was found on TBAR is erroneous. The FBI had the sequences and it could easily determine the number of bills without identifying each and every serial number.

REPLY:   Every bill given Cooper had a serial number. Every serial number and the order of the numbers were recorded by the bank. The FBI attempted to identify serial numbers in the Ingram find and made a "count" of the total. The total was estimated at $5800 and that total was published. The count was based on the serial numbers identified! The FBI also examined the order of serial nubers in the Ingram find and determined the order of the serial numbers was still the same as when the money was prepared and given to Cooper! 

If anyone comes along and is able to identify more serial numbers previously not identified by the FBI, that changes the count.

This aint rocket science. This is simple arithmetic and counting.

I can't imagine why FLyjack is trying to complicate this ... except he likes to argue and set up his own interpretations and agenda so he will appear brilliant and special. Flyjack will never back down from his agendas because his whole identity is wrapped up in them - its a personal thing in Flyjack's identity including his insistence there were paper straps in the Ingram money and termites ate the edges of the bills!  The termites were at a particular address ... on Earth!   

They didn't find additional bills and it does not change the estimated amount of $5,800. They were just the serial numbers of some of the already-counted bills for which the serial number was previously unable to be read.

The $5,800 estimate was not based on counting the serial numbers (if that had been the case, the estimate would have been far lower). It was based on the fact that there were 3 bundles and each bundle contained between X number and Y number of bills. (They intentionally varied the number of bills in each bundle in an attempt to make the ransom appear hastily gathered.) For the majority of the recovered bills, the serial number was unable to be seen because so many of the bills were clumped together. The work that these folks did was simply identify some of those previously unknown serial numbers. But it does not change the amount of money that was found.

You may be correct.  So, the estimate of $5800 is based on the fact of three "bundles". Bands seen by the Ingrams identified a bundle. Each bundle contained random numbers of bills  between X number and Y number of bills. Somebody knew the range of numbers between x and y twenties per bundle. Thus $5800 estimate. Any new serial numbers found were already included in the estimate of three bundles.

That's roughly $1933.3333 per bundle, or 96.67 $20 dollar bills per bundle. 

Where do Flyjack's paper straps between the bills come in? What is a packet?

Weren't there start and stop marks on the bank's list made to identify the serial numbers placed in each random bundle?    

That's what is a little unclear about it all. On the one hand, I've heard that the bills were in the same order as they were when they were originally bundled (indicating that they were not shuffled by Cooper or anyone else). But with so many serial numbers that were impossible to read, how did they know they were still in order? My guess is what you said --- the "stop" and "start" numbers for each bundle. Assuming that the serial number for the top and bottom bill in each bundle could be read (most of the ones that clumped together were more in the middle of the bundles) then they could safely say that the bills had not been rearranged. Although, without being able to see all of the serial numbers, you could probably never say for 100% certainty that they were all in the same order. But more likely than not if the top and bottom ones were still consistent.

On the other hand, the Ingram family took the bills home and tried to dry them out (even tried to bleach or wash them?). Did the bills remain in order when they were doing this or somehow get back in order when they were handed off to the FBI later on? Tough to say. Just one of the many layers of mystery surrounding the money find. And did the rubber bands that the Ingrams said were on the bills ever make it to the FBI? I believe the Ingrams said the bands just crumbled away when touched, so I'm assuming they just got tossed out (which is a shame, because additional testing could have been done on the bands similar to the testing that was done on the bills).

I agree with you that Eric's Cooper bill initiative certainly does not prove anything about the money ever entering circulation. It's evidence to support that notion, but certainly proves nothing. How many unique non-matching hits did the site get? How many people were even aware of this initiative? It's not like this was dominating the news cycle and everyone and their brother was racing to the site with old twenties. On top of that, it's been almost half a century. So if any bills did enter circulation, it's likely they no longer are. In fact, I believe Eric calculated there might be around 40 bills still remaining if they had all entered circulation (minus the Ingram bills). So definitely a long shot that any of those serial numbers would be entered into a site that nobody outside of the Cooper world even knows about.

Sometimes when I'm really bored I'll do an eBay search for old $20 bills for sale from the ransom years (1969, 1963, 1950 and 1934) and check the serial numbers on the check six site. Obviously no winners yet. But if I ever do get a hit, you better believe I'm buying that sucker on the spot and paying rush delivery for it.

[georger]

A 2018 article by CoinWorld You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login    says that 35 more serial numbers were found by conservators working on the Ingram money, than the FBI previously counted. That brings the Ingram find to $6500.

Anyone actually know what a Cooper bill is selling for these days? EU offered $25k. Ive seen $65k in print. Anyone actually know?

Flyjack replies:

 This is a common and often repeated misunderstanding and needs to be clarified. This happened in 2008 when 35 additional serial numbers were identified from fragments. It was not 35 additional bills, just newly identified numbers from fragments.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The TBAR bills were 3 packets of 100, a few missing from one but in the same order as given to Cooper per micro recording. The FBI did not identify every bill by the identifiable serial number but they had the sequence.

PGCS identified previously unrecorded serial numbers from fragments within the 3 packets, they did not find additional bills.

Claiming more than $6000 was found on TBAR is erroneous. The FBI had the sequences and it could easily determine the number of bills without identifying each and every serial number.

REPLY:   Every bill given Cooper had a serial number. Every serial number and the order of the numbers were recorded by the bank. The FBI attempted to identify serial numbers in the Ingram find and made a "count" of the total. The total was estimated at $5800 and that total was published. The count was based on the serial numbers identified! The FBI also examined the order of serial nubers in the Ingram find and determined the order of the serial numbers was still the same as when the money was prepared and given to Cooper! 

If anyone comes along and is able to identify more serial numbers previously not identified by the FBI, that changes the count.

This aint rocket science. This is simple arithmetic and counting.

I can't imagine why FLyjack is trying to complicate this ... except he likes to argue and set up his own interpretations and agenda so he will appear brilliant and special. Flyjack will never back down from his agendas because his whole identity is wrapped up in them - its a personal thing in Flyjack's identity including his insistence there were paper straps in the Ingram money and termites ate the edges of the bills!  The termites were at a particular address ... on Earth!   

They didn't find additional bills and it does not change the estimated amount of $5,800. They were just the serial numbers of some of the already-counted bills for which the serial number was previously unable to be read.

The $5,800 estimate was not based on counting the serial numbers (if that had been the case, the estimate would have been far lower). It was based on the fact that there were 3 bundles and each bundle contained between X number and Y number of bills. (They intentionally varied the number of bills in each bundle in an attempt to make the ransom appear hastily gathered.) For the majority of the recovered bills, the serial number was unable to be seen because so many of the bills were clumped together. The work that these folks did was simply identify some of those previously unknown serial numbers. But it does not change the amount of money that was found.

You may be correct.  So, the estimate of $5800 is based on the fact of three "bundles". Bands seen by the Ingrams identified a bundle. Each bundle contained random numbers of bills  between X number and Y number of bills. Somebody knew the range of numbers between x and y twenties per bundle. Thus $5800 estimate. Any new serial numbers found were already included in the estimate of three bundles.

That's roughly $1933.3333 per bundle, or 96.67 $20 dollar bills per bundle. 

Where do Flyjack's paper straps between the bills come in? What is a packet?

Weren't there start and stop marks on the bank's list made to identify the serial numbers placed in each random bundle?    

That's what is a little unclear about it all. On the one hand, I've heard that the bills were in the same order as they were when they were originally bundled (indicating that they were not shuffled by Cooper or anyone else). But with so many serial numbers that were impossible to read, how did they know they were still in order? My guess is what you said --- the "stop" and "start" numbers for each bundle. Assuming that the serial number for the top and bottom bill in each bundle could be read (most of the ones that clumped together were more in the middle of the bundles) then they could safely say that the bills had not been rearranged. Although, without being able to see all of the serial numbers, you could probably never say for 100% certainty that they were all in the same order. But more likely than not if the top and bottom ones were still consistent.

On the other hand, the Ingram family took the bills home and tried to dry them out (even tried to bleach or wash them?). Did the bills remain in order when they were doing this or somehow get back in order when they were handed off to the FBI later on? Tough to say. Just one of the many layers of mystery surrounding the money find. And did the rubber bands that the Ingrams said were on the bills ever make it to the FBI? I believe the Ingrams said the bands just crumbled away when touched, so I'm assuming they just got tossed out (which is a shame, because additional testing could have been done on the bands similar to the testing that was done on the bills).

I agree with you that Eric's Cooper bill initiative certainly does not prove anything about the money ever entering circulation. It's evidence to support that notion, but certainly proves nothing. How many unique non-matching hits did the site get? How many people were even aware of this initiative? It's not like this was dominating the news cycle and everyone and their brother was racing to the site with old twenties. On top of that, it's been almost half a century. So if any bills did enter circulation, it's likely they no longer are. In fact, I believe Eric calculated there might be around 40 bills still remaining if they had all entered circulation (minus the Ingram bills). So definitely a long shot that any of those serial numbers would be entered into a site that nobody outside of the Cooper world even knows about.

Sometimes when I'm really bored I'll do an eBay search for old $20 bills for sale from the ransom years (1969, 1963, 1950 and 1934) and check the serial numbers on the check six site. Obviously no winners yet. But if I ever do get a hit, you better believe I'm buying that sucker on the spot and paying rush delivery for it.

Raoul - thank you! I think we are very close to being in agreement. I also wonder what the Ingrams did or did not do, but I look at the groups of money on the FBI table as presented by the Ingrams. Those groups look consistent within themselves morphologically, same damage patterns within each group, but I dont know exactly what the Ingrams did or did not do. I dont know that the FBI even asked the Ingrams what they had done to separate and clean the bills. The only thing we do know is there are twelve groups of bills shown in the press conference photo.  Do those 12 groups represent what the Ingrams turned in or did the FBI separate the money into twelve groups as a presentation for the press?

In addition, the Ingrams  somehow separated four bills from their bills and they kept those bills as souvenirs, accord to Crystal Ingram. Himmelsbach convinced Crystal to ask the Ingrams to turn those four bills in, and they did through Crystal in a second meeting between Crystal and H. So the Ingrams were able to separate out at least four bills from the money they found. The fact that they kept back four bills leads me to wonder if that is the whole story ? Were it not for Crystal, the FBI would not have known about four more bills being held back . . . were more bills kept back?

The FBI lab separated the Ingram bills into as many individual bills as they could. Those bills were placed in evidence folders x-number of bills per folder. That process created lots of fragments of bills and 'dust' (small pieces). The small pieces were put into several plastic boxes (Tom was shown at Seattle - I think). When the Court divided the money each claimant was given bills in those FBI evidence folders. The FBI moved bills between folders until each claimant was given the Court ordered number of bills. The bills Brian has today are still in original FBI evidence folders. In 2012 Brian described his folders as having lots of fragments and dust particles in addition to larger fragments and pieces of bills he was given. PCGS found sand particles in some of Ingrams bills. Are particles of rubber bands still in some of these folders - or even pieces of bank band paper straps, as per Flyjack's contention?

The start and stop marks on the bank's list of serial numbers is the only way the FBI could have tested the question of whether the bills were in the same order as when given to Cooper, or not. Evidently that same order was evident during the FBI examination, regardless of what the Ingrams did or did not do in their cleaning and separating of bills. The Cooper money evidently passed from Cooper through Nature to Tina Bar, without any obvious change in the bills' order as prepared by the bank.

More later.

[Bruce A. Smith]

My 3rd Edition

I've been working on my book's 3rd edition. Here are the major topics I'm addressing from late 2015, early 2016 until now that need to be included. Are there any aspects of Norjak that I may be missing or under-reporting? If so, please let me know. Here's what I've got:

3rd Edition.

1.   FBI closes the case, 2016
2.   Cooper Con 2018 and 2019, 2020 scheduled
3.   Emergence of Eric Ulis as a major investigator, new book
4.   Western Flight Path
5.   Walter Reca and Principia Media
6.   Airborne Bob Rackstraw and Tom Colbert
7.   Deaths of Ralph Himmelsbach, Bob Sailshaw
8.   The Cooper Vortex Podcast
9.   Particles on the tie, work of Tom Kaye
10.    The DZ is back, sort of.
11.    Martin McNally tells all in podcast
12.    Emergence of Fred Hahneman as a viable suspect, ala Flyjack
13.    More docus – BBC - tba, History Channel w Eric- tba, Expedition Unknown, Unexplained Mysteries with Christof Putzel, HC’s “Case Closedâ€�

[Bruce A. Smith]

Jo Weber

As per Nicky's suggestion, I asked the Santa Rosa County Sheriff's Department to conduct a welfare check on Jo today. I am awaiting their call.

[Bruce A. Smith]

Update on Jo Weber

The SRCSO got back to me. Jo is in a "memory care" facility in Pensacola. Her family has been alerted and is involved, according to reports the sheriff deputy relayed to me after speaking with two of Jo's old neighbors.

I'll continue to get more information. Stay tuned.

[RaoulDuke24]

My 3rd Edition

I've been working on my book's 3rd edition. Here are the major topics I'm addressing from late 2015, early 2016 until now that need to be included. Are there any aspects of Norjak that I may be missing or under-reporting? If so, please let me know. Here's what I've got:

3rd Edition.

1.   FBI closes the case, 2016
2.   Cooper Con 2018 and 2019, 2020 scheduled
3.   Emergence of Eric Ulis as a major investigator, new book
4.   Western Flight Path
5.   Walter Reca and Principia Media
6.   Airborne Bob Rackstraw and Tom Colbert
7.   Deaths of Ralph Himmelsbach, Bob Sailshaw
8.   The Cooper Vortex Podcast
9.   Particles on the tie, work of Tom Kaye
10.    The DZ is back, sort of.
11.    Martin McNally tells all in podcast
12.    Emergence of Fred Hahneman as a viable suspect, ala Flyjack
13.    More docus – BBC - tba, History Channel w Eric- tba, Expedition Unknown, Unexplained Mysteries with Christof Putzel, HC’s “Case Closedâ€�

If you're going to dedicate chapters to Reca, Rackstraw and Hahneman, why not a chapter on the emergence of William Smith and all the work of the anonymous Army investigator?

[Bruce A. Smith]

Good suggestion. It's on the list, now.

[Darren]

I'd love it if you'd add James Klansnic and Howard Hunt to the 3rd edition too Bruce!

[georger]

I'd love it if you'd add James Klansnic and Howard Hunt to the 3rd edition too Bruce!

Or you could do something tangible that enlightens the DB Cooper case ... interview banking officials, people at Seafirst, or people at the Federal Reserve:  find out once and for all if the word "packet" has any formal meaning as a banking term, as EU and Flyjack contend it does. Interview Ckret. He's talking to EU and others, evidently.  Maybe he will talk to you. All of this matters because FJ and EU are contending the found money at Tina Bar was packed differently than the Ingrams, Ckret, Tom Kaye, etc say it was! EU and FJ are contending they know more about the form the ransom money was in than Ckret, Seafirst employees, the Ingrams, and the FBI does! Interview EU and FJ and get them to explain to you how they know more than anyone else about how the money was prepared for Cooper ... and the form the Cooper money was actually in when found at Tina Bar.