Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 2210915 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6930 on: April 22, 2020, 05:24:34 PM »
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Flight Comms history of releases -

For whatever its worth, the origin of the Seattle PI flight comms Transcript was discussed at some length back in May of 2011, on Dropzone. It was established that the first release of the socalled PI Transcript was thru an FBI FOIA site (now extinct), and when that link closed down a download for the file was moved to the Seattle Post Intelligencer (now extinct) where I got the file ... before Sluggo even had a DB Cooper website. Carr then moved the file to Sluggo's website and the PI link remaiend but was eventually taken down. R99 and I etal had a discussion about redacted vs unredacted airplane conversations and how that could have happened and where those conversation would have been recorded, if at all! R99 was helpful in that discussion - I can post his remarks. Important - R99 established that he thought conversations could have taken place which were never included in any official flight comms transcript. (I should post those remarks by R99 maybe later tonight).

With the PI Transcript now available solely through Sluggo, Carr then released a socalled "NWA Transcript", on Sluggo's website. We compared the new NWA Transcript with the PI Transcript. R99 made remarks...

I will post the actual record from 2011 and before tonight when time permits.

PI Transcript - released at FBI site via FOIA release date uncertain.
PI Transcript - available thru Seattle PI with FOIA website taken down.
PI Transcript - available through Sluggo's website, PI site taken down.
NWA Transcript - released by Carr thru Sluggo date uncertain ...

Unredacted PI Transcript -  no proof it ever existed. Was not included in NWA Transcript release by Carr.  ?  Total mystery. See prior remarks about such a document by R99 in May 2011.

Why don't you release the remarks that you are hinting that I made that don't support whatever?

Further, have you actually read the Seattle and Oakland radio transcripts?  Your claims strongly suggest that you haven't or, even if you have, that you don't understand what they mean.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6931 on: April 22, 2020, 06:40:05 PM »
Nothing in the so called redactions suggest much of anything...I've never seen redactions done this way to begin with. some of the dots are seconds between transmissions or after a hand off. what could possibly be said that they are covering up? Ammerman claims they were done due to other traffic which I describe as noise. this would suggest a different set of transcripts vs the generic way they redact by blacking words out or covering them (white out). the white out version is what we see in the 302's.

I fail to see any smoking gun in this..they state in the transcripts of not knowing if Cooper was still on the plane so what could they be hiding or covering up? this would be extremely hard to do with so many involved. if it's the plane's position it calls for more covering up by falsifying a map. we basically have idiots flying a plane, idiots behind a radar screen giving locations that are miles off, idiots in the Air Force in the air and on the ground. we have idiots on the ground searching miles off because the dots tell the real story or the placard? that's a lot of idiots in one event, no?

I've always admitted the gaps in the jump zone but if they didn't know he really jumped then what again are they covering up. they finally knew once the plane landed because they were to chicken to look. Rataczak told Carr it was 10 - 15 minutes after 8:05 and not 5 - 10?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6932 on: April 22, 2020, 06:57:57 PM »
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Nothing in the so called redactions suggest much of anything...I've never seen redactions done this way to begin with. some of the dots are seconds between transmissions or after a hand off. what could possibly be said that they are covering up? Ammerman claims they were done due to other traffic which I describe as noise. this would suggest a different set of transcripts vs the generic way they redact by blacking words out or covering them (white out). the white out version is what we see in the 302's.

I fail to see any smoking gun in this..they state in the transcripts of not knowing if Cooper was still on the plane so what could they be hiding or covering up? this would be extremely hard to do with so many involved. if it's the plane's position it calls for more covering up by falsifying a map. we basically have idiots flying a plane, idiots behind a radar screen giving locations that are miles off, idiots in the Air Force in the air and on the ground. we have idiots on the ground searching miles off because the dots tell the real story or the placard? that's a lot of idiots in one event, no?

I've always admitted the gaps in the jump zone but if they didn't know he really jumped then what again are they covering up. they finally knew once the plane landed because they were to chicken to look. Rataczak told Carr it was 10 - 15 minutes after 8:05 and not 5 - 10?

The attachments you include are not air traffic control communications nor were they transmitted over the air traffic control frequencies.  They were made over the ARINC radio patch and teletype network.

When the airliner was handed off to the Oakland Center, the Oakland controller booted everyone, including the C-130, off the airliner's VHF frequency.  And no other aircraft was on that frequency throughout the landing in Reno.

It is very likely that no other aircraft was on the same frequencies assigned to the airliner during the time it was in the Seattle Center's area and enroute to Reno.

I have posted over the years about the frequencies assigned to the airliner when in the Seattle Center's area and I suggest you take a look at those posts which include a discussion of where their remote radio facilities were located along V-23.   
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 07:07:49 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6933 on: April 22, 2020, 07:04:43 PM »
the point is the redaction.....
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6934 on: April 22, 2020, 07:09:46 PM »
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the point is the redaction.....

?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6935 on: April 22, 2020, 07:14:06 PM »
This is redacted by me and typically what we see with redactions...
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6936 on: April 22, 2020, 07:18:02 PM »
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This is redacted by me and typically what we see with redactions...

I have seen quite a bit of redacted material over the years myself and I have seen plenty of redactions indicated by . . . . . . . !
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6937 on: April 22, 2020, 07:18:33 PM »
Then sometimes you get a page like this...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6938 on: April 22, 2020, 07:19:48 PM »
Why would anyone outside the FBI feel the need to hide evidence...why would the FBI change the way they redact?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 07:45:07 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6939 on: April 22, 2020, 07:20:32 PM »
Gotta run to the store before it closes in 40 minutes....
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6940 on: April 22, 2020, 07:24:35 PM »
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Why the anyone outside the FBI feel the need to hide evidence...why would the FBI change the way they redact?

I have seen FBI/DOJ redactions indicated by several different means.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6941 on: April 22, 2020, 07:43:25 PM »
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Why the anyone outside the FBI feel the need to hide evidence...why would the FBI change the way they redact?

I have seen FBI/DOJ redactions indicated by several different means.

Usually blacked out or white out...I've never seen dots..if it's the way it's done in aviation then Ammerman could be right..it just appears to be a break in unrelated information or we would see the typical redaction. the first one is 12 seconds into the flight..
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 07:57:00 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6942 on: April 22, 2020, 09:01:13 PM »
To redact is, I believe a way to cover or obscure something for different reasons. typically it's security reasons. to remove text completely would not be legal IMO. this would be grounds for a conspiracy. redaction gives them the ability to "obscure" making it legal.

The transcripts are showing removal vs redaction. a simple reason could be a factor and one has been given. this would be considered "tampering with evidence" by removing text. redaction saves them from the tampering clause.     

Now, the six dots could be aviation redaction or breaks in non-related information. If the FBI did get a different set why would they use aviation redaction vs the standard or why give the FBI redacted transcripts? doesn't make sense IMHO...
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 09:12:41 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6943 on: April 22, 2020, 09:45:20 PM »
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...has anyone ever been told by anyone associated with the Cooper case that an "unredacted copy of the flight comms" exists and they saw or read it, in the FBI, FAA, at NWA, or in any federal agency ?

Because if that document doesn't exist and never existed, as claimed by the Arizona guys, then THAT requires some explanation, and a revision in the history of this critical part of the DB Cooper case. A pragmatic view of the case requires that.

If by "pragmatic view" you mean my view, as above in the comments, no. My view doesn't require that.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6944 on: April 22, 2020, 10:02:43 PM »
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To redact is, I believe a way to cover or obscure something for different reasons. typically it's security reasons. to remove text completely would not be legal IMO. this would be grounds for a conspiracy. redaction gives them the ability to "obscure" making it legal.

The transcripts are showing removal vs redaction. a simple reason could be a factor and one has been given. this would be considered "tampering with evidence" by removing text. redaction saves them from the tampering clause.     

Now, the six dots could be aviation redaction or breaks in non-related information. If the FBI did get a different set why would they use aviation redaction vs the standard or why give the FBI redacted transcripts? doesn't make sense IMHO...

I have consulted two dictionaries with the following results.  Both define one meaning of "redact" as "edit".  The first one defines one meaning of "edit" as "delete".  The second one defines one meaning of "edit" as "remove material".

Six dots here means six dots and nothing else.

This discussion is over.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 10:04:01 PM by Robert99 »