Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1923494 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #645 on: September 06, 2015, 03:44:41 PM »
I doubt anything Gray, or Kaye seen was redacted...they were direct source files...
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #646 on: September 06, 2015, 04:10:05 PM »
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I doubt anything Gray, or Kaye seen was redacted...they were direct source files...

Unless they were limited to redacted files on some stuff....
 
Also...for the record... re : direct source files ...  Though I'm sure it's just me being cynical and conspiratorial, and all is really kosher and aboveboard in the vortex,...plus.... I would never accuse another of doing what I might do under similar circumstances :)   -- it does "appear" that it might be possible, only possible, that someone was allowed or took it upon himself to do more than "see" files.
 
Unless you are into what Bruce is smoking...and I'm not saying I'm a total dis-believer in esoteric alternate realities - I've seen a UFO and have a friend who sees and talks to dead people --- I do think it is highly unlikely that the parachute document put itself on the internet.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 04:10:34 PM by smokin99 »
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #647 on: September 06, 2015, 04:15:03 PM »
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I doubt anything Gray, or Kaye seen was redacted...they were direct source files...

Unless they were limited to redacted files on some stuff....
 
Also...for the record... re : direct source files ...  Though I'm sure it's just me being cynical and conspiratorial, and all is really kosher and aboveboard in the vortex,...plus.... I would never accuse another of doing what I might do under similar circumstances :)   -- it does "appear" that it might be possible, only possible, that someone was allowed or took it upon himself to do more than "see" files.
 
Unless you are into what Bruce is smoking...and I'm not saying I'm a total dis-believer in esoteric alternate realities - I've seen a UFO and have a friend who sees and talks to dead people --- I do think it is highly unlikely that the parachute document put itself on the internet.

But I agree...you are probably right that we should not look a gift horse in the mouth.....I guess... Just hard not to look at the mystery within the mystery but I'll try to let it go :) :)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #648 on: September 06, 2015, 04:30:34 PM »
There is no harm in asking, or trying to find out where they came from. personally, I'm hoping for future files to come to light, so it's in my best interest to be positive with the people supplying the information. it's a bit James Bond-ish, but I can deal with that. it is what it is....
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #649 on: September 06, 2015, 04:46:54 PM »
My goal here was to start a forum where everyone could discuss the case without constant interruptions. it appears that has been accomplished. another plan was to help gather the best known information about the case that can be easily accessed from one site (now two) sites and slow down on the constant linking, and searching out other clues. finding, or bringing new things to the table is also a goal, so I believe I have accomplished a lot.

I've put a lot of time and effort into this thing we call DB Cooper, probably more than I should, but I do enjoy doing this. I''m glad we have a safe place to discuss, and show things about this case making it all worth while. the Producers at Atlas have been hard at work as well. hopefully they will hit pay dirt in the near future.

Shutter
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 04:51:55 PM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #650 on: September 06, 2015, 05:15:32 PM »
The purpose of this post is to discuss what has been released previously from the Seattle FBI's File "SE 164-81" (more on those numbers later).  Here are the pages that can be directly connected to that file and what they contain:

Pages           Contents

0-20             Unknown

21-26           FBI crew interview in Seattle

27-36           Unknown

37-45           FBI crew interview in Reno

46-53           FBI crew interview in Philadelphia

54-56           FBI crew interview in Seattle

57-58           Unknown

59-63           FBI crew interview in Reno

64-64           FBI crew interview in Reno

65-88           Unknown

89-106         ARINC teletype message print outs

107-134       Unknown

135-141       "FBI Notes" faxed to Sluggo

142-142       Unknown

143-143       Page sent direct from FBI to Robert99

144-192       Radio transcripts during approach to
                   Seattle and while on the ground there

193-193       Page sent direct from FBI to Robert99

194-194       Osterkamp's Seattle Certification Letter

195-200       Redacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts

201-209       Complete Oakland ATC radio transcripts

210-225       Complete Reno ATC radio transcripts

NOTES:

1.  Pages 186-192 were also included with the "FBI Notes" that were faxed to Sluggo.

2.  The "b6" and "b7c" that appears in the margins of some of the documents indicates that some information was not included in order to protect personal privacy.

3.  Copies of the notes taken in the cockpit during the hijacking have been posted on Sluggo's web page and are probably also in the above file but their page numbers could not be determined.

4.  I will discuss pages 143 and 193, and their meaning, in another post in the immediate future.

5.  I may well have missed some documents that could provide more page numbers.


Perhaps someone familiar with the FBI file numbering system could enlighten us on it, but it seems to be something like the following:

In the "SE 164-81", "SE" stands for Seattle FBI office.  "LV" stands for the Las Vegas FBI office and they conducted the interviews at Reno.  The Philadelphia FBI office did not use an abbreviation, they wrote out the full name.

The number "164" seems to be standard between offices and probably indicates a type of file.  The number "81" seems to indicate a specific file.  Both the Las Vegas and Philadelphia offices use different numbers after the "164".  LV uses "-60-139" and Philadelphia uses "-133".  The end numbers probably provide additional information on the document and who prepared it.

Robert99 


 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #651 on: September 06, 2015, 07:05:20 PM »
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I don't think anything about the ownership of the files will be made public. sometimes it's best to leave things the way they are. I've accepted the files were sent to me, and permission was granted to make them public....


Shutter

That's probably best....but if I had to guess I would say that GG did more than look....and now they are once again being "leaked" either by him or someone that found out about the back door before it was closed and chooses now to share .

It's either that, someone else who has had access, someone in LE is leaking, or they are fake.

This is why it would be so much cleaner if the FBI would just quit their dog and pony show, stop choosing who gets access and who doesn't, who gets to profit and who must live on crumbs, and let it all out. They won't, I'm sure, but they should. It's time, it's fair, it's right, and I am convinced they would never be able to successfully prosecute Dan "DB" Cooper any way  - even if they found him tomorrow lighting a cigar with a purloined twenty.

While this was a crime and crimes are never really victim-less, it's also not Whitey Bulger.. but the key thing is they've opened the door and let some in... it's time for equal access.  >:( ;)

These appear to be photo copies all done at the same time (by the same person) with the exact same framing and depth of field (distance) position. Note the same code in the right hand margins on all copies - "b6 - b7c" whatever that means.

These photos look as if they were all photocopied from a static platform vs hand held camera, because each page shares the same photographic parameters. Perhaps with a photocopy machine or using a camera mounted on a static platform.
   
I seriously doubt Tom had anything to do with this. Gray is another matter. I believe Tom, Carol, and Gray were working in the files at about the same time?

Didn't Snowmman find hidden links to several FBI files on Gray's website that Gray claimed he didn't know anything about?  I never did understand what Snowmman was claiming or what the was all about. I do know Gray was intensely interested in all aspects of the Reno investigation and what evidence was found on the airplane and who interviewed who etc etc etc because he questioned me about what I knew at the very time I was looking into that aspect of the case and had talked to a few people. Gray asked me straight out "who have you interviewed" and "what do you know" ? I didn't tell him anything. ... some of that history is posted at DZ.

The whole Cooper case turned political decades ago.



   
 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 08:04:33 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #652 on: September 06, 2015, 07:14:32 PM »
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The purpose of this post is to discuss what has been released previously from the Seattle FBI's File "SE 164-81" (more on those numbers later).  Here are the pages that can be directly connected to that file and what they contain:

Pages           Contents

0-20             Unknown

21-26           FBI crew interview in Seattle

27-36           Unknown

37-45           FBI crew interview in Reno

46-53           FBI crew interview in Philadelphia

54-56           FBI crew interview in Seattle

57-58           Unknown

59-63           FBI crew interview in Reno

64-64           FBI crew interview in Reno

65-88           Unknown

89-106         ARINC teletype message print outs

107-134       Unknown

135-141       "FBI Notes" faxed to Sluggo

142-142       Unknown

143-143       Page sent direct from FBI to Robert99

144-192       Radio transcripts during approach to
                   Seattle and while on the ground there

193-193       Page sent direct from FBI to Robert99

194-194       Osterkamp's Seattle Certification Letter

195-200       Redacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts

201-209       Complete Oakland ATC radio transcripts

210-225       Complete Reno ATC radio transcripts

NOTES:

1.  Pages 186-192 were also included with the "FBI Notes" that were faxed to Sluggo.

2.  The "b6" and "b7c" that appears in the margins of some of the documents indicates that some information was not included in order to protect personal privacy.

3.  Copies of the notes taken in the cockpit during the hijacking have been posted on Sluggo's web page and are probably also in the above file but their page numbers could not be determined.

4.  I will discuss pages 143 and 193, and their meaning, in another post in the immediate future.

5.  I may well have missed some documents that could provide more page numbers.


Perhaps someone familiar with the FBI file numbering system could enlighten us on it, but it seems to be something like the following:

In the "SE 164-81", "SE" stands for Seattle FBI office.  "LV" stands for the Las Vegas FBI office and they conducted the interviews at Reno.  The Philadelphia FBI office did not use an abbreviation, they wrote out the full name.

The number "164" seems to be standard between offices and probably indicates a type of file.  The number "81" seems to indicate a specific file.  Both the Las Vegas and Philadelphia offices use different numbers after the "164".  LV uses "-60-139" and Philadelphia uses "-133".  The end numbers probably provide additional information on the document and who prepared it.

Robert99

wow! Shutter needs to file your post in the archive.


2.  The "b6" and "b7c" that appears in the margins of some of the documents indicates that some information was not included in order to protect personal privacy.


I just asked about this and here you explain it. How do you know this is what b6 and b7c means - what is your source?
 
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #653 on: September 06, 2015, 08:05:31 PM »
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2.  The "b6" and "b7c" that appears in the margins of some of the documents indicates that some information was not included in order to protect personal privacy.


I just asked about this and here you explain it. How do you know this is what b6 and b7c means - what is your source?

This wasn't directed at me, but here's one source that explains FOIA exemptions:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #654 on: September 06, 2015, 08:14:18 PM »
Gray is always....a grey area  :D ;) :)
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #655 on: September 06, 2015, 11:55:51 PM »
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2.  The "b6" and "b7c" that appears in the margins of some of the documents indicates that some information was not included in order to protect personal privacy.


I just asked about this and here you explain it. How do you know this is what b6 and b7c means - what is your source?

This wasn't directed at me, but here's one source that explains FOIA exemptions:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Yes. Robt99  also sent me the attached - this is very interesting. It may address our question; were these pdf's the result of an FOIA? If the codes on these photocopies are for compliance with FOIA requirements then at the least we may assume these pdf's were 'involved' in some FOIA process at some time during the document's history. This would explain the fine photocopy work done from a set frame mount which resulted in the standardised parameters of each page. Thank you Smokin99 and Robt99!
 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 12:01:28 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #656 on: September 07, 2015, 12:18:54 AM »
Reference is made to post number 650, above, which will be discussed further here.  Specifically, the contents of pages 143 thru 225 of FBI Document "SE 164-81" are of interest.

Pages 143 - 225 contain the radio transcripts of NWA 305's contacts with the Seattle, Oakland, and Reno Air Traffic Control Centers as it flew from Seattle to Reno and cover the time period of approximately 7:36 PM PST, the take off time from Seattle, to 11:22 PM PST, when the flight crew turned off the radios and exited the aircraft in Reno.

It should be noted that the Oakland and Reno ATC transcripts are complete, but the Seattle ATC transcripts contain 19 areas of deletions.  Those 19 deletions include all the ATC information that would pinpoint the location of the airliner during the time it was under control of the Seattle Center.  And that information is precisely what the present writer has been seeking through FOIA requests with the FBI and FAA.

Pages 143 through 225, inclusive, consist of 83 pieces of paper.  And pages 143 and 193 have now been received from the FBI as a result of an FOIA.  Subtracting those two pages leaves 81 pieces of paper.  And that is precisely the same number of pages that the FBI has described as FAA generated and has referred those pages back to the FAA for their review and action.

This page counting exercise strongly suggests that the 81 pages the FBI referred back to the FAA includes the redacted Seattle ATC transcripts rather than the complete set of un-redacted transcripts.

The first paragraph of page 193 is redacted to delete the name of the Seattle FAA official who provided the FBI with transcriptions of their communications with NWA 305.  However, his position is described and this official has to be Gerald H. Oaterkamp, Chief, Seattle ARTCC.  [There is a remote possibility that the last name could start with a "D" rather than an "O".]

Page 194 is a transmittal page prepared by Mr. Oaterkamp and contains two certifications.  The first certification reads:

 "I HEREBY CERTIFY that the following is a true transcription of the recorded conversation pertaining to the subject incident. Signed, Gerald H. Oaterkamp, typed, Gerald H. Oaterkamp, Chief, Seattle ARTCC."

The second certification reads:

"I certify that this is a true copy of the original which is on file at this office.  Signed, Gerald H. Oaterkamp, typed, Chief, Seattle Center."

Mr. Oaterkamp does not list the number of pages of transcripts that he is transmitting to the FBI.  However, the redacted transcript pages in "SE 164-81" are pages 195 through 200, inclusive, or six pieces of paper.

In the above, Mr. Oaterkamp is stating that he has had a transcription of the communications between the Seattle Center and NWA 305 made, that he is transmitting it to the FBI, and that he is keeping the original transcription in his files in Seattle.  It is simply not believable that he would be transmitting a document with 19 areas of redactions.  Consequently, the FBI must have made the redactions in pages 195 through 200.

The redacted information is already "public" since it was transmitted over aircraft radios with other aircraft, as well as the general public, listening in as the airliner headed to Reno.  There are no redactions of similar information in the Oakland and Reno Center radio transcripts.  And none of the transcripts contain any restricted or classified information.

The end result of the FOIA requests mentioned earlier is to obtain the original transcription that Mr. Oaterkamp prepared on this incident in his capacity as Chief of the Seattle ATC Center.  The original transcription was probably retained in the FAA files and may have eventually been sent to a federal file depository under what ever records management program the FAA used.   The information sought will probably not exceed 20 pages in length.

Does anyone have any information about the FAA's records management program as it existed in the Seattle area in 1971?  Since there were no restrictions on the records sought, it may well be that individuals involved with the incident kept a copy for their own personal use and information.  Any help or suggestions on this would be greatly appreciated.

Robert99





 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #657 on: September 07, 2015, 02:07:28 AM »
Wonderful work, Robert99. Thank you!
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #658 on: September 07, 2015, 04:07:40 AM »
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Wonderful work, Robert99. Thank you!

+1. Great work!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #659 on: September 08, 2015, 06:25:59 AM »
Only one person was able to get the color of Cooper's eye's...he didn't have them on until he was putting on the back chute?