New Forum & News Updates

[Shutter]

Initially, the FBI thought Cooper jumped at 8:09 pm when 305 was above Battleground, WA, thus putting him on the ground after a 10-minute drift northeast near Amboy. By 1975, the time had been revised to 8:12 pm, which put DB Cooper’s exit over Orchards, WA, and a new LZ near Hochinson.

If you look at the map the 8:09 position is north of the Lewis river. the 8:12 location would be northwest of Battleground. 305 would be in the Orchards area between 8:15 and 8:16...

[377]

I'm not implying any corruption but I was always amazed that a retired FBI agent had so much money. He owned a Beechcraft Bonanza, had an obviously expensive home. Inheritance?

JT really helped me out by telling H that I was a good guy. No money demands and a very cordial extended conversation. H was very modest about his aviation history and skills. He flew P 51 Mustangs as a military pilot. He seemed pleased that I knew he was a LOT more than a weekend general aviation pilot with a couple of hundred hours flown in sunny weather. 

377

[haggarknew]

It sounds like he was a fascinating guy. Would have loved to meet him and discussed the case. Was he open to discussing db with you? Did he share any secrets about the case? Did he ever discuss the case publicly?

[Bruce A. Smith]

Initially, the FBI thought Cooper jumped at 8:09 pm when 305 was above Battleground, WA, thus putting him on the ground after a 10-minute drift northeast near Amboy. By 1975, the time had been revised to 8:12 pm, which put DB Cooper’s exit over Orchards, WA, and a new LZ near Hochinson.

If you look at the map the 8:09 position is north of the Lewis river. the 8:12 location would be northwest of Battleground. 305 would be in the Orchards area between 8:15 and 8:16...

Thanks, Shut. I'll revise. I wasn't 100% sure of the times - there has been so much controversy.

[377]

Himmelsbach thought Cooper did not survive the jump. That opinion may have been strongly influenced by JT who was certainly qualified to render an expert opinion on the matter. JT was a military HALO qualified parachutist who had extensive survival training and teaching experience. He And I disagreed strongly on Cooper's jump death but the disagreement was always respectful.

It really bugged Ralph that Cooper was a popular hero. He had a VERY low opinion of Cooper. He shared no secrets about the case. My main reason for calling H was to explore Tosaw's claim that Tina saw Cooper pull and inspect packing cards from the rigs. If this was true, then it tells you a LOT about Cooper's background. Ralph said there was absolutely nothing in the files that supported the packing card inspection claim and he considered it untrue.

Ralph didn't know much about jumping or parachute gear but he was a very seasoned and knowledgeable aviator.

377

[Bruce A. Smith]

I'm not implying any corruption but I was always amazed that a retired FBI agent had so much money. He owned a Beechcraft Bonanza, had an obviously expensive home. Inheritance?

JT really helped me out by telling H that I was a good guy. No money demands and a very cordial extended conversation. H was very modest about his aviation history and skills. He flew P 51 Mustangs as a military pilot. He seemed pleased that I knew he was a LOT more than a weekend general aviation pilot with a couple of hundred hours flown in sunny weather. 

377

Regarding Himms' finances, it was a topic of conversation at one of Sailshaw's salons at the Seattle Yacht Club. I raised the subject with former SA Bob Sales, who knew all the players in the Norjak investigation although he was not personally involved in the case, yet based in Seattle.

Sales told me that he knew Himms was personal friends with Phil Whatever, the owner and founder of Nike, which is Portland-based, and that they knew each other from the old days. Sales speculated that Ralph bought a lot of Nike stock before it took off and made a bundle that way.

Others have speculated that his money came from his second wife, etc.

Regardless, he had it. His house was magnificent.

These issues and Haggars' comments have me thinking about some of the quirks in Ralph's life.

To begin, JT and Ralph were very close. Father and son type close. JT even told me that he considered Ralph to be a second father to him.

Also, the former FBI agent, Gary Tallis, once dated Himms' daughter! Gary was in the History Channel docu and also participated in the initial ground search, although he said that he got helo'd up into the snow fields at high elevation. I met Gary at the 2011 DBC Conference and we spoke a bunch afterwards. Also, Gary told me that he volunteered to recapitulate the Cooper jump - at night from a 727 over Amboy, but J Edgar turned him down, adamantly, it sounded.

Ralph was rumored to be fiercely at odds with Seattle over Norjak. I have no confirmation on that, though. Regardless, the larger shards found at T-Bar by Ralph and his crew were not in the evidence trove in Seattle with the CS went looking, circa 2009.

In addition, a few years back JT told me that Ralph told him to tell me that he (Himms) thought Galen and I were, "full of shit." Sigh.... This was back when Galen was putting Ralph's feet to the fire for lying about the DB Cooper letters, especially "Letter #3." Ralph wasn't the only one deceiving us because the Oregonian was saying, "We know nothing about nothing!" .... Yeah, right.

[haggarknew]

Thanks 377.  His thought on db not surving the jump, was this his belief from the beginning? Or did that develope over time?

[Bruce A. Smith]

It sounds like he was a fascinating guy. Would have loved to meet him and discussed the case. Was he open to discussing db with you? Did he share any secrets about the case? Did he ever discuss the case publicly?

Ralph left tidbits all over the place depending on who was asking the questions. I've endeavored to gather them up - see my book! (smile...)

Nevertheless, Ralph is in a LOT of docus and TV clips. Dozens, I figure. YouTube, baby.... So many that he had to start charging moolah - $600 for a print interview, and $2,300 for a video interview.

After you get Ralph's book and mine, you will have MANY splendid evenings of reading. Enjoy!!!

[Bruce A. Smith]

Thanks 377.  His thought on db not surving the jump, was this his belief from the beginning? Or did that develope over time?

Ralph has always put DBC in the ground. He is not alone in that regard. Initially, the FBI was evenly split on the notion of Cooper surviving. That perspective has lingered to the present, although it is waning these days as folks like us keep pushing against the false narratives the FBI has long-espoused, such as it was too cold, DBC picked the wrong chute, etc. IMO, that narrative is fueled more by the politics of preserving the Bureau's public image than the facts of the case and sound analysis.

[haggarknew]

Thanks Bruce. I will be in touch soon to order your book. I am looking forward to reading both.  The vortex keeps sucking me in further and further!  Lol.     I am getting ready to go watch my daughters ' last soccer match of the season, I will touch back later. Thanks to everyone for indulging me and my never ending questions.

[Robert99]

Himmelsbach thought Cooper did not survive the jump. That opinion may have been strongly influenced by JT who was certainly qualified to render an expert opinion on the matter. JT was a military HALO qualified parachutist who had extensive survival training and teaching experience. He And I disagreed strongly on Cooper's jump death but the disagreement was always respectful.

It really bugged Ralph that Cooper was a popular hero. He had a VERY low opinion of Cooper. He shared no secrets about the case. My main reason for calling H was to explore Tosaw's claim that Tina saw Cooper pull and inspect packing cards from the rigs. If this was true, then it tells you a LOT about Cooper's background. Ralph said there was absolutely nothing in the files that supported the packing card inspection claim and he considered it untrue.

Ralph didn't know much about jumping or parachute gear but he was a very seasoned and knowledgeable aviator.

377

377,

Please refresh my memory relative to what it is that makes you think Cooper had a good chance of surviving under the circumstances that existed when he jumped.

How many jumps have you made with a WW2 type back chute that was unmodified?  Reserves don't count here.

And how does your views of the jump fit in with the rest of the matter, such as how the money got to Tina Bar and was buried there?

Robert99

[377]

Copycats survived so why not Cooper? I have well over 100 C9 round military canopy jumps with all sorts of steering mods, TU, Double L etc. I made about 60 jumps on one that had only a small single T Slot mod and that was pretty close to unmodified, very very little forward drive. I have never jumped a completely unmodified military round canopy.

IMO all Cooper had to do was deploy the canopy and he would likely land alive (barring a water landing which I think would be fatal).

I can't explain the T Bar money find. I practiced criminal defense law for years. Criminals don't normally abandon money. I can't think of one example among my hundreds of clients.  Does it suggest Cooper died? Well, the money find is more consistent with death than survival, but it doesn't prove death. Am I biased? Of course, everyone in the Vortex is biased. I like to think Cooper survived and think it would not be that difficult or unlikely to survive. But, if he splashed down in the river, all bets are off.

377

[377]

Thanks 377.  His thought on db not surving the jump, was this his belief from the beginning? Or did that develope over time?

I really do not know the answer. Bruce might.

377

[377]

Thanks Bruce. I will be in touch soon to order your book. I am looking forward to reading both.  The vortex keeps sucking me in further and further!  Lol.     I am getting ready to go watch my daughters ' last soccer match of the season, I will touch back later. Thanks to everyone for indulging me and my never ending questions.

You'll like Bruce's book. I sure did. Hope your daughter's team wins.

377

[Robert99]

Copycats survived so why not Cooper? I have well over 100 C9 round military canopy jumps with all sorts of steering mods, TU, Double L etc. I made about 60 jumps on one that had only a small single T Slot mod and that was pretty close to unmodified, very very little forward drive. I have never jumped a completely unmodified military round canopy.

IMO all Cooper had to do was deploy the canopy and he would likely land alive (barring a water landing which I think would be fatal).

I can't explain the T Bar money find. I practiced criminal defense law for years. Criminals don't normally abandon money. I can't think of one example among my hundreds of clients.  Does it suggest Cooper died? Well, the money find is more consistent with death than survival, but it doesn't prove death. Am I biased? Of course, everyone in the Vortex is biased. I like to think Cooper survived and think it would not be that difficult or unlikely to survive. But, if he splashed down in the river, all bets are off.

377

Thanks.  My highly-limited-by-today's-standards parachuting experience was all with 5-TU modified round canopies and one descent on a round reserve chute.  And this was in the early 1960s.

In my opinion, from an aerodynamic point of view, Cooper would start tumbling immediately after stepping off the rear stairs and would not be able to stabilize himself due to his own obviously limited parachuting experience, the darkness, and the overcast and other cloud layers at lower altitudes.

How he attached the money bag and missing reserve (assuming he took it with him) to himself would vastly increase the possibility of fouling the canopy during deployment.  That is assuming that Cooper could even find and pull the ripcord in the 40 seconds or so before he hit the ground.

I also don't think that Cooper buried the money at Tina Bar.  Why bury $6000 within a few feet of the waters edge, and with no protection at all (not even a paper bag), when it will be underwater just from normal fluctuations in the river level.  It could have just as easily have been buried further up the bank in a better location.  This leads me to believe that the money arrived at Tina Bar by some natural means and it certainly didn't come from the Washougal watershed.

While some aspects of the Cooper matter will always remain unresolved, the overall scenario must have some consistency and provide a general explanation of the major events.

You are correct that we all biased here.

Robert99