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[Bruce A. Smith]

I want to know who and what the source of these files is.

Gray? Snowmman? Jo Weber?

Like Bruce I am suspicious Gray is mixed up in this and I have very concrete reasons (from prior conversation with Gray) for thinking this -

I will leave it at that.

I'd like to know as well.

Yo, 377 - is Snowmman following this? Has he seen these files? Any ideas where they came from - how they got into Reichenbach's hands?  Were they in Geoffrey Gray's cache that also had the parachute files?

So, Reichs!  Where did you get these files?  Can you shed any light on the cloak and dagger secrecy surrounding them?  Did you steal them from GG the same way I stole the parachute docs?

THANKS a million, anyway, regardless of how you got 'em!

Also, any idea on why there are so many large gaps in the docs?  20 pages or so between Flo and Alice's statements. How come?

Lastly, who redacted all the names?  Regardless, it was a lot of fun figuring out who was who!!! It was like a Norjak quiz for us insiders!

[Shutter]

I don't think anything about the ownership of the files will be made public. sometimes it's best to leave things the way they are. I've accepted the files were sent to me, and permission was granted to make them public....


Shutter

[georger]

I don't think anything about the ownership of the files will be made public. sometimes it's best to leave things the way they are. I've accepted the files were sent to me, and permission was granted to make them public....
Shutter

In a prior event of remote seeing the following was posted back in 2011:


377  (F 666)
Oct 22, 2011, 9:20 PM
Post #27914 of 58140 (49526 views)
          A kinder gentler Snow [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
Snow writes:

smokin99 said the file was on gray's book home page. I said no. I was wrong.

I had said it wasn't since no page on his web site linked to anything that had the file.
I just discovered I was wrong. It's there, just not linked to by any page.

I was talking to 377, explaining how the world works, sun revolves around the planets, etc and I discovered that Gray has files where he doesn't know he has files.

And where I don't know he has files.

I will not call Gray stupid, because I am reformed, and everyone knows Gray is a good guy.

So Gray is publishing the file he tried to hide before when he added a password to the other site.

here it is.

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Then to this Smokin99 replied:


smokin99
Oct 22, 2011, 11:43 PM
Post #27921 of 58140 (49475 views)
          Re: [377] A kinder gentler Snow [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
Quote:
Snow writes:

smokin99 said the file was on gray's book home page. I said no. I was wrong.

I had said it wasn't since no page on his web site linked to anything that had the file.
I just discovered I was wrong. It's there, just not linked to by any page.

I was talking to 377, explaining how the world works, sun revolves around the planets, etc and I discovered that Gray has files where he doesn't know he has files.

And where I don't know he has files.

I will not call Gray stupid, because I am reformed, and everyone knows Gray is a good guy.

So Gray is publishing the file he tried to hide before when he added a password to the other site.

here it is.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

[reply]

Thanks. Like i told Snow I definitely make mistakes but i don't intentionally mislead. I accepted his apology and offered mine for my response to his 377 post and a pm. All's well on the Eastern front. 

So...while perusing the above link I found this. I'm assuming this is okay to post since he left it out there. If not, well oops again. 

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Gray wrote about the SR-71. Guess this is where he got it from. This memo is why I think the SE 164-81 is referring to the Seattle office. Note that the FBI Director designation on this memo is 164-2111. When I mentioned the location designation SE 164-81 to Snow, he reminded me that BUR 164-2111 and SE 164-81 are also seen on the composite drawings. My guess is that BUR = Bureau.

Edited to say looks like more than one memo - note dates.

Question: why are memos being sent to Minneapolis office too? Could it be because Northwest was based there or other reason? (This post was edited by smokin99 on Oct 23, 2011, 12:03 AM)


Who knows whither the wind and the files blows and from where! For all anyone knows these recent documents posted could all be fakes. They could also be real. Holes leak.   

[Shutter]

For all anyone knows these recent documents posted could all be fakes.

?

[377]

IF "chest" was used that is VERY interesting. Skydivers called them reserves, belly warts etc. I very seldom heard them called "chest" by jumpers unless the jumper was a rigger. The FAA, riggers and military called them chest. But only paratroopers and special ops had chest reserves. Almost all the bailout rigs were back or seat.

I'm wondering if Cooper ever showed his eye color? Tina appears to say that he always had sunglasses on in her presence. So Peterson and Braden might not be ruled out on eye color.

377

[377]

The redactions make me think these reports were supplied by the FBI in response to a FOIA request or in litigation discovery.

377

[377]

Mexico City, nonstop,  gear down, flaps down, 10,000 feet...

No flap angle specified? Where did the 15 degree info come from?

Shutter, could a 727 go that far in that configuration? Very thirsty at 10000 ft.  Cooper didn't care though.

377

[Shutter]

Mexico City, nonstop,  gear down, flaps down, 10,000 feet...

No flap angle specified? Where did the 15 degree info come from?

Shutter, could a 727 go that far in that configuration? Very thirsty at 10000 ft.  Cooper didn't care though.

377

The plane could never reach that far under those conditions. later in the transcripts/files he does specify 15 degree's.
At 10:37 they had 17,300 lbs. of fuel left. 1630 nautical miles left to Mexico City.

The more you read into things, the more I can see where Carr states he knew enough to get himself in trouble.

Several things go back & forth. small bills, circulated US currency. chest pack, front pack.

[georger]

IF "chest" was used that is VERY interesting. Skydivers called them reserves, belly warts etc. I very seldom heard them called "chest" by jumpers unless the jumper was a rigger. The FAA, riggers and military called them chest. But only paratroopers and special ops had chest reserves. Almost all the bailout rigs were back or seat.

I'm wondering if Cooper ever showed his eye color? Tina appears to say that he always had sunglasses on in her presence. So Peterson and Braden might not be ruled out on eye color.

377

Its right there in these pages. Only Flo saw his eyes uncovered ... plus a few others. After Flo went forward with his note and came back, he had put on the sunglasses with Tina sitting by him. Tina says in these pages she never saw his eyes. That is probably debatable and relative.

I think it is important to point out these are not the only interviews/debriefings the crew members gave following and during the hijacking. For example, Tom and Carol etal spent some time trying to get a handle on the full scope and breadth of the Cooper Hijacking Investigation and its complexity. When Carr left Tom posted quickly and advised everyone that we had just lost our 'single best hope' of plumbing and interpreting the investigative side of the Cooper case. By that time Tom and Carol had gained enough perspective that I felt Tom's statement was fully accurate and justified - and these few pdfs that have surfaced fits into that large perspective!   

For example, as you read through these pages and compare them with other documents people have read, who are the first people the flight crew communicates with through every event happening during the hijacking? The company. You will never see their interview and investigative files! This hijacking required the FBI to work with a number of entities and agencies. One isolated example of this interplay may be Scott's brief statement recorded in /1322460-0 - 164-LV-60-Section 6, Serial 150-1/. Missing is where Scott's primary loyalties and responsibilities were and to whom", to The Company who in turn worked closely with the FBI just as other agencies and entities worked closely with the FBI, not to mention the fact that these few pages by themselves probably do not record the full scope of interviews and testimony Scott gave directly to the FBI, on other occasions!

[smokin99]

IF "chest" was used that is VERY interesting. Skydivers called them reserves, belly warts etc. I very seldom heard them called "chest" by jumpers unless the jumper was a rigger. The FAA, riggers and military called them chest. But only paratroopers and special ops had chest reserves. Almost all the bailout rigs were back or seat.

I'm wondering if Cooper ever showed his eye color? Tina appears to say that he always had sunglasses on in her presence. So Peterson and Braden might not be ruled out on eye color.

377

Its right there in these pages. Only Flo saw his eyes uncovered ... plus a few others. After Flo went forward with his note and came back, he had put on the sunglasses with Tina sitting by him. Tina says in these pages she never saw his eyes. That is probably debatable and relative.

I think it is important to point out these are not the only interviews/debriefings the crew members gave following and during the hijacking. For example, Tom and Carol etal spent some time trying to get a handle on the full scope and breadth of the Cooper Hijacking Investigation and its complexity. When Carr left Tom posted quickly and advised everyone that we had just lost our 'single best hope' of plumbing and interpreting the investigative side of the Cooper case. By that time Tom and Carol had gained enough perspective that I felt Tom's statement was fully accurate and justified - and these few pdfs that have surfaced fits into that large perspective!   

For example, as you read through these pages and compare them with other documents people have read, who are the first people the flight crew communicates with through every event happening during the hijacking? The company. You will never see their interview and investigative files! This hijacking required the FBI to work with a number of entities and agencies - and you may never see their files! One isolated example of this interplay may be Scott's brief statement recorded in /1322460-0 - 164-LV-60-Section 6, Serial 150-1 Scott/ which Brucy-Baby hurls an insult at! What Bruce is probably missing is where Scott's primary loyalties and responsibilities were and to whom" to The Company who in turn worked closely with the FBI just as other agencies and entities worked closely with the FBI, not to mention the fact that these few pages by themselves probably do not record the full scope of interviews and testimony Scott gave directly to the FBI, on other occasions!

I agree -- Also --if you read the transcripts  -- they clearly and pointedly exclude others when it's time to talk to the "Company". While they might have stepped back and cooperated later, there should be no doubt that Northwest and Nyrop /delegates were running this show while it was happening...Everyone else was secondary, this includes the FBI, FAA, AND ATC.
At one point LE is basically told to stand down by Northwest.

I doubt there is anything of import about the hijacking in those papers at MHS, but hopefully one day Vicki or someone in the vicinity can take a day trip there to check out the Northwest Airline Corporate records here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

[georger]

IF "chest" was used that is VERY interesting. Skydivers called them reserves, belly warts etc. I very seldom heard them called "chest" by jumpers unless the jumper was a rigger. The FAA, riggers and military called them chest. But only paratroopers and special ops had chest reserves. Almost all the bailout rigs were back or seat.

I'm wondering if Cooper ever showed his eye color? Tina appears to say that he always had sunglasses on in her presence. So Peterson and Braden might not be ruled out on eye color.

377

Its right there in these pages. Only Flo saw his eyes uncovered ... plus a few others. After Flo went forward with his note and came back, he had put on the sunglasses with Tina sitting by him. Tina says in these pages she never saw his eyes. That is probably debatable and relative.

I think it is important to point out these are not the only interviews/debriefings the crew members gave following and during the hijacking. For example, Tom and Carol etal spent some time trying to get a handle on the full scope and breadth of the Cooper Hijacking Investigation and its complexity. When Carr left Tom posted quickly and advised everyone that we had just lost our 'single best hope' of plumbing and interpreting the investigative side of the Cooper case. By that time Tom and Carol had gained enough perspective that I felt Tom's statement was fully accurate and justified - and these few pdfs that have surfaced fits into that large perspective!   

For example, as you read through these pages and compare them with other documents people have read, who are the first people the flight crew communicates with through every event happening during the hijacking? The company. You will never see their interview and investigative files! This hijacking required the FBI to work with a number of entities and agencies - and you may never see their files! One isolated example of this interplay may be Scott's brief statement recorded in /1322460-0 - 164-LV-60-Section 6, Serial 150-1 Scott/ which Brucy-Baby hurls an insult at! What Bruce is probably missing is where Scott's primary loyalties and responsibilities were and to whom" to The Company who in turn worked closely with the FBI just as other agencies and entities worked closely with the FBI, not to mention the fact that these few pages by themselves probably do not record the full scope of interviews and testimony Scott gave directly to the FBI, on other occasions!

I agree -- Also --if you read the transcripts  -- they clearly and pointedly exclude others when it's time to talk to the "Company". While they might have stepped back and cooperated later, there should be no doubt that Northwest and Nyrop /delegates were running this show while it was happening...Everyone else was secondary, this includes the FBI, FAA, AND ATC.
At one point LE is basically told to stand down by Northwest.

I doubt there is anything of import about the hijacking in those papers at MHS, but hopefully one day Vicki or someone in the vicinity can take a day trip there to check out the Northwest Airline Corporate records here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

+1........... 

[smokin99]

I don't think anything about the ownership of the files will be made public. sometimes it's best to leave things the way they are. I've accepted the files were sent to me, and permission was granted to make them public....


Shutter

That's probably best....but if I had to guess I would say that GG did more than look....and now they are once again being "leaked" either by him or someone that found out about the back door before it was closed and chooses now to share .

It's either that, someone else who has had access, someone in LE is leaking, or they are fake.

This is why it would be so much cleaner if the FBI would just quit their dog and pony show, stop choosing who gets access and who doesn't, who gets to profit and who must live on crumbs, and let it all out. They won't, I'm sure, but they should. It's time, it's fair, it's right, and I am convinced they would never be able to successfully prosecute Dan "DB" Cooper any way  - even if they found him tomorrow lighting a cigar with a purloined twenty.

While this was a crime and crimes are never really victim-less, it's also not Whitey Bulger.. but the key thing is they've opened the door and let some in... it's time for equal access. 

[377]

Ahhh. Flap command is noted.

"He said, "We're going to Mexico City, gear down, flaps down, you can trim the flaps to 15, you can stop anywhere in Mexico to refuel, but nowhere in the United States. The aft door must be open and the stairs to be down. The altitude under 10,000 feet, they know they can't go over that. Cabin lights out and everyone is to be forward of the first class curtain"

377

[smokin99]

The redactions make me think these reports were supplied by the FBI in response to a FOIA request or in litigation discovery.

377

I thought GG first, but then I thought I remembered that the parachute documents taken from the files had no redactions -- seems like there would have been one on Hayden's name if he got that through FOIA channels - so then I wondered if someone else got lucky with a request......

But then again, I was told by the FBI that all records responsive to my FOIA request had already been made public and could be found on the Vault -- that same vault site that is basically filled with pdfs of newspaper articles.....My request included crew interviews. Crushed again -- I think they gave me the shaft or maybe I gave up too soon 

Oh well, Until someone can't hold it in any longer we can only speculate...

[Shutter]

That's probably best....but if I had to guess I would say that GG did more than look....and now they are once again being "leaked" either by him or someone that found out about the back door before it was closed and chooses now to share .

It would be nice to find where they came from, but I see this as information that is helping us. perhaps the "don't ask, don't tell" clause is the best avenue. they appear to be legit, so it's the best information to float down the Columbia in a very long time.  why worry who, or where they came from. lets be happy we have them. shoot them over to the FBI for verification if that's what needs to be done....my guess is copies are flying all over the place by now