New Forum & News Updates

[Robert99]

To clarify things.....

Flyjack is referring to the calculations used in a PDF about drift factors. he believes it would drift a lot further than the calculations R99 speaks of. nobody has shown any calculations (publicly). the drift distance basically tells that. he's quoted that several times.

I never asked you to post anything about his comments. I simply responded to the comment due to a complaint. I've already mentioned that I'm not siding with anyone.

I have posted several documents surrounding who made the map and references to the Portland area multiple times with people still responding saying nothing has every ever been shown? actual FBI documents and nobody see's them or cares to acknowledge them.

"The crew of the above airline has now spotted a possible area for this suspected departure of the hijacker to be over the lake Merwin, near, Woodland, Washington"

The quote above is troubling trying to move the path away from the Lake Merwin area.

The document below (posted twice) clearly states where the map came from.

Are we now compelled to believe these statements and documents are diversions. the radar operators are wrong, and now the pilots. where does it end?

I'm not debating whether the map was provided by McChord AFB. I'm debating whether it's accurate.

I'm not sure exactly what Shutter is referring to but the take-off time from SEATAC was 7:36PM PST according to Captain Scott and that time was used in all my calculations.

The time that the placard separated from the airliner is not known but could be estimated if the flight path was accurately known.  The time of the jump was estimated by the flight crew as being about 8:11 or 8:12PM PST.  And at that time, the airliner was in the vicinity of Tina Bar.

The flight crew did NOT know their exact location at the time of the jump and, according to Rataczak, told the people on the ARINC hook-up to "mark your maps".  This means that the airliner was NOT on V-23 at the time of the jump but was being vectored by ATC direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection and bypassing Portland on the west side.

Lake Merwin doesn't figure into this in any realistic manner.  The towns of Woodland and La Center are both WEST of the centerline of V-23.  Since it was night time and the airliner was above an overcast and several other layers of clouds, the flight crew would NOT be able to give a jump location based on visual sightings of landmarks on the ground.

Robert99: Do you think there is any chance that Cooper knew where he was when he jumped or is it safe to say he only knew that he was somewhere between Seattle and Portland?

There is simply no way that Cooper could have known, within a radius of about 30+ miles, where he was when he jumped.  He could not see the ground and there were no electronic devices available in 1971 that would have helped him.

Ckret made a post stating the same thing, that Cooper could not have known where he was when he jumped. 

[fcastle866]

To clarify things.....

Flyjack is referring to the calculations used in a PDF about drift factors. he believes it would drift a lot further than the calculations R99 speaks of. nobody has shown any calculations (publicly). the drift distance basically tells that. he's quoted that several times.

I never asked you to post anything about his comments. I simply responded to the comment due to a complaint. I've already mentioned that I'm not siding with anyone.

I have posted several documents surrounding who made the map and references to the Portland area multiple times with people still responding saying nothing has every ever been shown? actual FBI documents and nobody see's them or cares to acknowledge them.

"The crew of the above airline has now spotted a possible area for this suspected departure of the hijacker to be over the lake Merwin, near, Woodland, Washington"

The quote above is troubling trying to move the path away from the Lake Merwin area.

The document below (posted twice) clearly states where the map came from.

Are we now compelled to believe these statements and documents are diversions. the radar operators are wrong, and now the pilots. where does it end?

I'm not debating whether the map was provided by McChord AFB. I'm debating whether it's accurate.

I'm not sure exactly what Shutter is referring to but the take-off time from SEATAC was 7:36PM PST according to Captain Scott and that time was used in all my calculations.

The time that the placard separated from the airliner is not known but could be estimated if the flight path was accurately known.  The time of the jump was estimated by the flight crew as being about 8:11 or 8:12PM PST.  And at that time, the airliner was in the vicinity of Tina Bar.

The flight crew did NOT know their exact location at the time of the jump and, according to Rataczak, told the people on the ARINC hook-up to "mark your maps".  This means that the airliner was NOT on V-23 at the time of the jump but was being vectored by ATC direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection and bypassing Portland on the west side.

Lake Merwin doesn't figure into this in any realistic manner.  The towns of Woodland and La Center are both WEST of the centerline of V-23.  Since it was night time and the airliner was above an overcast and several other layers of clouds, the flight crew would NOT be able to give a jump location based on visual sightings of landmarks on the ground.

Robert99: Do you think there is any chance that Cooper knew where he was when he jumped or is it safe to say he only knew that he was somewhere between Seattle and Portland?

There is simply no way that Cooper could have known, within a radius of about 30+ miles, where he was when he jumped.  He could not see the ground and there were no electronic devices available in 1971 that would have helped him.

Ckret made a post stating the same thing, that Cooper could not have known where he was when he jumped.

What if anything could he see from the air? He saw Tacoma right? The pilot saw Vancouver?

[georger]

To clarify things.....

Flyjack is referring to the calculations used in a PDF about drift factors. he believes it would drift a lot further than the calculations R99 speaks of. nobody has shown any calculations (publicly). the drift distance basically tells that. he's quoted that several times.

I never asked you to post anything about his comments. I simply responded to the comment due to a complaint. I've already mentioned that I'm not siding with anyone.

I have posted several documents surrounding who made the map and references to the Portland area multiple times with people still responding saying nothing has every ever been shown? actual FBI documents and nobody see's them or cares to acknowledge them.

"The crew of the above airline has now spotted a possible area for this suspected departure of the hijacker to be over the lake Merwin, near, Woodland, Washington"

The quote above is troubling trying to move the path away from the Lake Merwin area.

The document below (posted twice) clearly states where the map came from.

Are we now compelled to believe these statements and documents are diversions. the radar operators are wrong, and now the pilots. where does it end?

I'm not debating whether the map was provided by McChord AFB. I'm debating whether it's accurate.

I'm not sure exactly what Shutter is referring to but the take-off time from SEATAC was 7:36PM PST according to Captain Scott and that time was used in all my calculations.

The time that the placard separated from the airliner is not known but could be estimated if the flight path was accurately known.  The time of the jump was estimated by the flight crew as being about 8:11 or 8:12PM PST.  And at that time, the airliner was in the vicinity of Tina Bar.

The flight crew did NOT know their exact location at the time of the jump and, according to Rataczak, told the people on the ARINC hook-up to "mark your maps".  This means that the airliner was NOT on V-23 at the time of the jump but was being vectored by ATC direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection and bypassing Portland on the west side.

Lake Merwin doesn't figure into this in any realistic manner.  The towns of Woodland and La Center are both WEST of the centerline of V-23.  Since it was night time and the airliner was above an overcast and several other layers of clouds, the flight crew would NOT be able to give a jump location based on visual sightings of landmarks on the ground.

Robert99: Do you think there is any chance that Cooper knew where he was when he jumped or is it safe to say he only knew that he was somewhere between Seattle and Portland?

There is simply no way that Cooper could have known, within a radius of about 30+ miles, where he was when he jumped.  He could not see the ground and there were no electronic devices available in 1971 that would have helped him.

Ckret made a post stating the same thing, that Cooper could not have known where he was when he jumped.

What if anything could he see from the air? He saw Tacoma right? The pilot saw Vancouver?

the statement is: "could see the lights of ..... Vancouver coming up". Didn't say he could see Vancouver.

[Robert99]

To clarify things.....

Flyjack is referring to the calculations used in a PDF about drift factors. he believes it would drift a lot further than the calculations R99 speaks of. nobody has shown any calculations (publicly). the drift distance basically tells that. he's quoted that several times.

I never asked you to post anything about his comments. I simply responded to the comment due to a complaint. I've already mentioned that I'm not siding with anyone.

I have posted several documents surrounding who made the map and references to the Portland area multiple times with people still responding saying nothing has every ever been shown? actual FBI documents and nobody see's them or cares to acknowledge them.

"The crew of the above airline has now spotted a possible area for this suspected departure of the hijacker to be over the lake Merwin, near, Woodland, Washington"

The quote above is troubling trying to move the path away from the Lake Merwin area.

The document below (posted twice) clearly states where the map came from.

Are we now compelled to believe these statements and documents are diversions. the radar operators are wrong, and now the pilots. where does it end?

I'm not debating whether the map was provided by McChord AFB. I'm debating whether it's accurate.

I'm not sure exactly what Shutter is referring to but the take-off time from SEATAC was 7:36PM PST according to Captain Scott and that time was used in all my calculations.

The time that the placard separated from the airliner is not known but could be estimated if the flight path was accurately known.  The time of the jump was estimated by the flight crew as being about 8:11 or 8:12PM PST.  And at that time, the airliner was in the vicinity of Tina Bar.

The flight crew did NOT know their exact location at the time of the jump and, according to Rataczak, told the people on the ARINC hook-up to "mark your maps".  This means that the airliner was NOT on V-23 at the time of the jump but was being vectored by ATC direct from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection and bypassing Portland on the west side.

Lake Merwin doesn't figure into this in any realistic manner.  The towns of Woodland and La Center are both WEST of the centerline of V-23.  Since it was night time and the airliner was above an overcast and several other layers of clouds, the flight crew would NOT be able to give a jump location based on visual sightings of landmarks on the ground.

Robert99: Do you think there is any chance that Cooper knew where he was when he jumped or is it safe to say he only knew that he was somewhere between Seattle and Portland?

There is simply no way that Cooper could have known, within a radius of about 30+ miles, where he was when he jumped.  He could not see the ground and there were no electronic devices available in 1971 that would have helped him.

Ckret made a post stating the same thing, that Cooper could not have known where he was when he jumped.

What if anything could he see from the air? He saw Tacoma right? The pilot saw Vancouver?

He did see Tacoma but that was during daylight and at about 6000 feet without an overcast and several other cloud layers below him.  The NWA pilots could see the "glow" of the Vancouver/Portland area lights through the clouds.  But neither they or the F-106 pilots would be able to determine their ground position with any accuracy visually.

[Shutter]

Where is the statement of the pilots seeing lights? they fail to mention it in the interviews or did I miss it?

[Shutter]

I can't seem to find any photo storage sites that are free and allow HTML linking. it's all about the money now. cheapest so far will be around $60 a year. looking into dropbox at the moment.

[Lynn]

Where is the statement of the pilots seeing lights? they fail to mention it in the interviews or did I miss it?

  Here's the quote regarding this from Rataczak, no mention of lights:

"...Rataczak stated that they had not yet reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or the immediate vicinity thereof." This was 5-10 mins after the last contact with DBC, when the oscillation was observed. Scott seems to merely have said that all crew members' recollections were accurate to the best of his knowledge.

[Shutter]

The transcripts state from 8:10 to 8:12. looking at the map doesn't imply the "suburbs or the immediate vicinity" this is closer to the Ariel location vs Portland suburbs.

[Lynn]

The transcripts state from 8:10 to 8:12. looking at the map doesn't imply the "suburbs or the immediate vicinity" this is closer to the Ariel location vs Portland suburbs.

That was a direct quote from Rataczak's transcript. But Rataczak's timeline is confused in at least one point: he states that he wonders if they could have pulled off a cockpit escape when Tina was fetching the parachutes after the passengers left. But the parachutes were delivered BEFORE the passengers left. But he wasn't in the cabin; he'd likely be more sure about things that occurred in the cockpit.

[Shutter]

If you read the statement which is believed to be the radar operator. it states that the chase planes were zig zagging around the area to be where he jumped and a ground location is given which is Scholl's airfield which has a parachute on the sectional map as they stated.

[Shutter]

[Shutter]

That was a statement taken after the hijacking. I don't recall seeing that statement on either set of transcripts.

[Lynn]

If you read the statement which is believed to be the radar operator. it states that the chase planes were zig zagging around the area to be where he jumped and a ground location is given which is Scholl's airfield which has a parachute on the sectional map as they stated.

I was just quoting Rataczak's original interview; his timeline probably became clearer once the immediate shock was off. His confusion over when the passengers left the plane in the original interview was surprising. But you also have to take into account how well the person transcribing the interview was relaying the info. They may have misunderstood Rataczak's timeline. He does mention the suburbs of Portland, though he doesn't say how he came to that conclusion about where they were, and the radar operator may well have had a different zone located.

[Lynn]

If you read the statement which is believed to be the radar operator. it states that the chase planes were zig zagging around the area to be where he jumped and a ground location is given which is Scholl's airfield which has a parachute on the sectional map as they stated.

I was just quoting Rataczak's original interview; his timeline probably became clearer once the immediate shock was off. His confusion over when the passengers left the plane in the original interview was surprising. But you also have to take into account how well the person transcribing the interview was relaying the info. They may have misunderstood Rataczak's timeline. He does mention the suburbs of Portland, though he doesn't say how he came to that conclusion about where they were, and the radar operator may well have had a different zone located.

Ratczak's original interview is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

[Shutter]

The radar operator should be taken seriously. they do there job all day long, the same for pilots. I fail to see any trauma in any of the pilots. I can't say that for the stews. none of these people are to be believed to have short memories. they are trained for these events.

The radar operator gives a location that is pretty consistent with the rest of the evidence. they show a jump map around the 8:12 area on the map. different statements show consistencies in the locations surrounding the map. even mentioning being on the east side of an airway.

What is not clear is the oscillation and pressure bump. Carr believes they might of mistaken them. then you read in the 302's they claim an oscillation and pressure bump together. then you have a statement from the pilots of 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper that gives a range of 8:15 which is where Scholl's airfield is located.