New Forum & News Updates

[EU]

For those so-inclined, and in Vancouver, WA on Thursday, March 28th, the Kiggins Theatre is hosting "DB Cooper: The FBI Files" from 7PM - 8:30PM.

I will be making the 90-minute presentation which will focus on the case at-large and will not focus on any one suspect. 377 has been kind enough to allow me to feature his Cooper $20 at the show, in addition to some other items.

The following link will bring you to the Kiggins website with additional info:

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[Bruce A. Smith]

Excellent. Hope you have a good turn-out. Will Doug Perry be covering it for the Oregonian?

[EU]

Excellent. Hope you have a good turn-out. Will Doug Perry be covering it for the Oregonian?

I haven't talked with him about it. That said, I will be seeing him about a week before the show and will ask him about it...Good idea.

[georger]

Well... I guess people are asking about me? Ive been busy researching the Tosaw and other expeditions on the Columbia, which followed the FBI excavation of Tina Bar in 1980. A lot of interesting stories have emerged by those still alive to talk about it. Tosaw painted a large and intricate canvas with his river work and media coverage. He made a lot of claims some of which are in his book. So far, it does not appear he found anything significant to add to Cooper knowledge. However, the research he told people he had has raised several important questions - and that might be worth a few future posts. My sincere thanks to the people who have been helping. You know who you are!     

[Bruce A. Smith]

I eagerly await your report, G.

[georger]

I eagerly await your report, G.

I regret that this is coming as late as it is. I would have preferred to do this while Tosaw and other principals were still alive. Some of the principals are still alive, some of the central facts are still intact, and at least one of Tosaw's theories is still very clear: he thought Cooper had placed the money he offered Tina back in his coat pocket. Cooper then landed in the Columbia, 'shed his coat to allow him to swim', and the money in his coat pocket was the money Ingram found on Tina Bar.

One editorial decision I am facing is what to release and what not to release! There are a number of different interests at stake, different people have presented slightly different versions or different stories of the same thing (in the same time frame), etc. We know who the principals were that worked with Tosaw, we know their relationships, but it is also clear that Tosaw's work overlapped other people working trying to recover anything from the Columbia, following the end of the FBI's excavation on Tina Bar. Tosaw and several others conducted their own explorations of Tina Bar itself, beyond diving or raking work in the Columbia! Wingdams in the area of the Ingram find were all explored, several times over, by different people over a  long time frame. I just wish I had started this work back in 2008 -       

PS: has anyone here got Tosaw's book and has actually read it?

[Shutter]

... why wasn't a pinger or something else  easy to find (like another open chute!) simply tossed out the back of the plane immediately after they thought Cooper had jumped? That alone would have identified the area needing to be searched. That would have solved a lot of problems.

Good question, Georger. I asked Larry Carr about tracking devices and he said "the technology hadn't been developed then." I was aghast. But journalists often tolerate Obvious Bullshit in the hope of maintaining a relationship with the principal for more information down the road.

As for tossing something out of the airplane, that would be done by the crew, of course. But their mindset seems to be "just fly the plane." Logical and reasonable, but not very pro-active as they say these days.

BTW, G, if you keep asking questions like this people might think you are beginning to sound like me! Be careful!!!!

Carr really said that? just months later they were put in McCoy's chutes?

[Kermit]

I eagerly await your report, G.

I regret that this is coming as late as it is. I would have preferred to do this while Tosaw and other principals were still alive. Some of the principals are still alive, some of the central facts are still intact, and at least one of Tosaw's theories is still very clear: he thought Cooper had placed the money he offered Tina back in his coat pocket. Cooper then landed in the Columbia, 'shed his coat to allow him to swim', and the money in his coat pocket was the money Ingram found on Tina Bar.

One editorial decision I am facing is what to release and what not to release! There are a number of different interests at stake, different people have presented slightly different versions or different stories of the same thing (in the same time frame), etc. We know who the principals were that worked with Tosaw, we know their relationships, but it is also clear that Tosaw's work overlapped other people working trying to recover anything from the Columbia, following the end of the FBI's excavation on Tina Bar. Tosaw and several others conducted their own explorations of Tina Bar itself, beyond diving or raking work in the Columbia! Wingdams in the area of the Ingram find were all explored, several times over, by different people over a  long time frame. I just wish I had started this work back in 2008 -       

PS: has anyone here got Tosaw's book and has actually read it?

Any actual names of individuals who gave information should not be posted on a public forum. Also,there are still a number of other involved individuals that are still around but haven’t as yet been contacted.

[georger]

I eagerly await your report, G.

I regret that this is coming as late as it is. I would have preferred to do this while Tosaw and other principals were still alive. Some of the principals are still alive, some of the central facts are still intact, and at least one of Tosaw's theories is still very clear: he thought Cooper had placed the money he offered Tina back in his coat pocket. Cooper then landed in the Columbia, 'shed his coat to allow him to swim', and the money in his coat pocket was the money Ingram found on Tina Bar.

One editorial decision I am facing is what to release and what not to release! There are a number of different interests at stake, different people have presented slightly different versions or different stories of the same thing (in the same time frame), etc. We know who the principals were that worked with Tosaw, we know their relationships, but it is also clear that Tosaw's work overlapped other people working trying to recover anything from the Columbia, following the end of the FBI's excavation on Tina Bar. Tosaw and several others conducted their own explorations of Tina Bar itself, beyond diving or raking work in the Columbia! Wingdams in the area of the Ingram find were all explored, several times over, by different people over a  long time frame. I just wish I had started this work back in 2008 -       

PS: has anyone here got Tosaw's book and has actually read it?

Any actual names of individuals who gave information should not be posted on a public forum. Also,there are still a number of other involved individuals that are still around but haven’t as yet been contacted.

No names have been used so far - several people have given permission to use their names. As I explained to you many times, this is a large project involving many issues not just Tosaw diving, many people are involved, lots of interviews, lots of issues, etc etc. It's not just people who worked with Tosaw of which there are many!

[Bruce A. Smith]

... why wasn't a pinger or something else  easy to find (like another open chute!) simply tossed out the back of the plane immediately after they thought Cooper had jumped? That alone would have identified the area needing to be searched. That would have solved a lot of problems.

Good question, Georger. I asked Larry Carr about tracking devices and he said "the technology hadn't been developed then." I was aghast. But journalists often tolerate Obvious Bullshit in the hope of maintaining a relationship with the principal for more information down the road.

As for tossing something out of the airplane, that would be done by the crew, of course. But their mindset seems to be "just fly the plane." Logical and reasonable, but not very pro-active as they say these days.

BTW, G, if you keep asking questions like this people might think you are beginning to sound like me! Be careful!!!!

Carr really said that? just months later they were put in McCoy's chutes?

Yup, Larry Carr did. I don't think he thought that I believed him, but he clearly needed to say it.

[Bruce A. Smith]

I eagerly await your report, G.

I regret that this is coming as late as it is. I would have preferred to do this while Tosaw and other principals were still alive. Some of the principals are still alive, some of the central facts are still intact, and at least one of Tosaw's theories is still very clear: he thought Cooper had placed the money he offered Tina back in his coat pocket. Cooper then landed in the Columbia, 'shed his coat to allow him to swim', and the money in his coat pocket was the money Ingram found on Tina Bar.

One editorial decision I am facing is what to release and what not to release! There are a number of different interests at stake, different people have presented slightly different versions or different stories of the same thing (in the same time frame), etc. We know who the principals were that worked with Tosaw, we know their relationships, but it is also clear that Tosaw's work overlapped other people working trying to recover anything from the Columbia, following the end of the FBI's excavation on Tina Bar. Tosaw and several others conducted their own explorations of Tina Bar itself, beyond diving or raking work in the Columbia! Wingdams in the area of the Ingram find were all explored, several times over, by different people over a  long time frame. I just wish I had started this work back in 2008 -       

PS: has anyone here got Tosaw's book and has actually read it?

Yup. I have a copy. Autographed, too! AND I read it!

[377]

I too have an autographed copy of Tosaws book. Really wish I could have met him.

G wrote: "at least one of Tosaw's theories is still very clear: he thought Cooper had placed the money he offered Tina back in his coat pocket. Cooper then landed in the Columbia, 'shed his coat to allow him to swim', and the money in his coat pocket was the money Ingram found on Tina Bar."

Having made night jumps and water jumps (but no night water jumps) I can tell you that it would be VERY VERY difficult to survive a night landing in the Columbia off T Bar and make it to shore. Not impossible though.

BTW SP has made night water jumps and dozens of wilderness jumps.

377

[andrade1812]

I too have an autographed copy of Tosaws book. Really wish I could have met him.

G wrote: "at least one of Tosaw's theories is still very clear: he thought Cooper had placed the money he offered Tina back in his coat pocket. Cooper then landed in the Columbia, 'shed his coat to allow him to swim', and the money in his coat pocket was the money Ingram found on Tina Bar."

Having made night jumps and water jumps (but no night water jumps) I can tell you that it would be VERY VERY difficult to survive a night landing in the Columbia off T Bar and make it to shore. Not impossible though.

BTW SP has made night water jumps and dozens of wilderness jumps.

377

My father was, and still is, adamant that a water landing was eminently survivable for a military trained paratrooper. Twenty pounds of money plus the harness and container is "not much gear at all" he told me. I have debated doing a few laps in cold water in my Cooper costume, however I also know the survival rate for bomber crews who landed in the sea off the coast of Denmark during WWII were very low (they were not, however, trained paratroopers).

[377]

Andrade wrote: "My father was, and still is, adamant that a water landing was eminently survivable for a military trained paratrooper. Twenty pounds of money plus the harness and container is "not much gear at all" he told me. I have debated doing a few laps in cold water in my Cooper costume, however I also know the survival rate for bomber crews who landed in the sea off the coast of Denmark during WWII were very low (they were not, however, trained paratroopers)."

Paratroopers are trained for water landings but the training (now at least) is not extensive. A skydive buddy who served in the 82d Airborne said he never did a real water landing during his Army service and that the training for such events was hypothetical and done on land.

This Army book is super detailed about paratrooper gear and training:

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From the above book:

"The next emergency landing I will cover is the WATER LANDING.
If you are drifting towards a body of water, immediately look then slip away. If you cannot avoid the water, look
below you to ensure there are no fellow jumpers and lower your equipment. Next, jettison your helmet, making
a mental note of where it lands. Activate the quick release in the waistband. Disconnect the left connector snap
and rotate the reserve parachute to the right. Seat yourself well into the saddle and activate the quick release
in the chest strap completely removing the chest strap from the chest strap friction adapter. Regain canopy
control. Prior to entering the water, assume a landing attitude by keeping your feet and knees together, knees
slightly bent and place your hands on both leg strap ejector snaps. When the balls of your feet make contact
with the water, activate both leg strap ejector snaps, arch your back, throw your arms above your head and
slide out of the parachute harness. Be prepared to execute a proper PLF if the water is shallow. Swim upwind,
or upstream, away from the canopy. If the canopy comes down on top of you, locate a seam, and follow it to
the skirt of the canopy."

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Your Dad may be right, but I sure wouldn't give myself great odds for surviving a night water landing in the Columbia in winter. Getting out of the harness quickly is essential and it is very difficult to do if you have standard (non ejector-type) leg strap snaps. At night and immersed in water it would be very hard to undo these snaps and even harder if the straps were tensioned by your weight.

Some paratroopers rigs had single point harness releases where the jumper could operate a single easy to find fitting (usually chest mounted) and release the harness straps. That might be what your Dad had and it would certainly make for better survival odds.

377

[andrade1812]

377--

Just to add some context, my father did several training jumps into water, and told me they were his favorite jumps because "it was easier on the knees." He examined the NB6 and NB8 rigs that I own, and still maintains a water landing wouldn't be a problem. Then again, he might really mean "it wouldn't be a problem for me"

Regardless, Cooper would have gone into the Columbia at terminal velocity. If Cooper jumped over the Columbia and pulled the ripcord, the winds would have delivered him to terra firma.