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[Shutter]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

[georger]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

By his you mean Tom or Harold? There is no way anyone could go off of Crystal's location because her testimony was never made public.

Tom's method involved him comparing on site FBI photos from 1980 with trees in 2008? He found a common tree, or remains of a tree. This tree I believe. Thats Tom ruler leaning on the tree. But that is not the old leaning tree shown in photos from 1980 but one to the north of it and closer to the water.

[Robert99]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

By his you mean Tom or Harold? There is no way anyone could go off of Crystal's location because her testimony was never made public.

Tom's method involved him comparing on site FBI photos from 1980 with trees in 2008? He found a common tree, or remains of a tree. This tree I believe. Thats Tom ruler leaning on the tree. But that is not the old leaning tree shown in photos from 1980 but one to the north of it and closer to the water.

Shutter, do you have anything showing the general area that includes the Tina Bar gate?  As I have always said, I can't be certain about seeing any known features and the angles simply don't seem to be right.

In the 1979 aerial photo, the containment pit shows and there is a white line on its east side.  That white line is actually in a U shape (open on the south side) with cow feeding troughs on each side.  Some of the photos have what appear to be structures in the upper right-hand corner.  Those may actually be vehicles parked there.  Things apparently got extremely crowded at the Fazio's and, judging from the extended shadows, the photos of the beach were apparently taken in the late afternoon with the mid-February sun setting in the southwest for that relatively high latitude. 

[georger]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

By his you mean Tom or Harold? There is no way anyone could go off of Crystal's location because her testimony was never made public.

Tom's method involved him comparing on site FBI photos from 1980 with trees in 2008? He found a common tree, or remains of a tree. This tree I believe. Thats Tom ruler leaning on the tree. But that is not the old leaning tree shown in photos from 1980 but one to the north of it and closer to the water.

Shutter, do you have anything showing the general area that includes the Tina Bar gate?  As I have always said, I can't be certain about seeing any known features and the angles simply don't seem to be right.

In the 1979 aerial photo, the containment pit shows and there is a white line on its east side.  That white line is actually in a U shape (open on the south side) with cow feeding troughs on each side.  Some of the photos have what appear to be structures in the upper right-hand corner.  Those may actually be vehicles parked there.  Things apparently got extremely crowded at the Fazio's and, judging from the extended shadows, the photos of the beach were apparently taken in the late afternoon with the mid-February sun setting in the southwest for that relatively high latitude.

and (important) ... what gate the the Ingrams enter at? Where did they park? I cant see them strolling too far with kids in tow. That info hasnt been forthcoming from anyone/any document!

[Robert99]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

By his you mean Tom or Harold? There is no way anyone could go off of Crystal's location because her testimony was never made public.

Tom's method involved him comparing on site FBI photos from 1980 with trees in 2008? He found a common tree, or remains of a tree. This tree I believe. Thats Tom ruler leaning on the tree. But that is not the old leaning tree shown in photos from 1980 but one to the north of it and closer to the water.

Shutter, do you have anything showing the general area that includes the Tina Bar gate?  As I have always said, I can't be certain about seeing any known features and the angles simply don't seem to be right.

In the 1979 aerial photo, the containment pit shows and there is a white line on its east side.  That white line is actually in a U shape (open on the south side) with cow feeding troughs on each side.  Some of the photos have what appear to be structures in the upper right-hand corner.  Those may actually be vehicles parked there.  Things apparently got extremely crowded at the Fazio's and, judging from the extended shadows, the photos of the beach were apparently taken in the late afternoon with the mid-February sun setting in the southwest for that relatively high latitude.

and (important) ... what gate the the Ingrams enter at? Where did they park? I cant see them strolling too far with kids in tow. That info hasnt been forthcoming from anyone/any document!

I think Sluggo used to have a picture of a gate on the very south side of the Fazio property that was on a narrow dirt road.  This would be just north of the marina area.  If the Ingrams entered that gate, they would probably not be able to get down to the water's edge until they had also passed through the area where the Tina Bar gate is now located.  Currently, the east shore landscape between Tina Bar and the marina has some vertical walls with the water at the base of those walls and there is simply no way to get past them without swimming.  Keep in mind that there are now some fences in that area that probably were not there in 1980.

[Shutter]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

By his you mean Tom or Harold? There is no way anyone could go off of Crystal's location because her testimony was never made public.

Tom's method involved him comparing on site FBI photos from 1980 with trees in 2008? He found a common tree, or remains of a tree. This tree I believe. Thats Tom ruler leaning on the tree. But that is not the old leaning tree shown in photos from 1980 but one to the north of it and closer to the water.

most people involved in the case go by Tom Kaye's website & coords. I'm going by tree's, roads, FBI photo's, helicopter video and sat, pics. the treeline by the road hasn't changed much. the tree's on the beach have..I've measured the best I can to come to the conclusion that he is off on his location.

R99, possibly with older overhead shots might be able to locate the gates?

[Shutter]

I have this pic...

[Robert99]

I have this pic...

I was hoping that there was a picture taken during the digging that included both the dig areas and the gate.  Basically, the trees look about the same to me.  But with all the helicopters shooting aerial film, someone surely got a shot showing the Tina Bar gate, which is easy to identify on charts and photos, plus the diggers hard at work at two different locations in the same frame.  Such a shot would help us get things oriented quite a bit better. 

Meyer Louie has a Government Printing Office printed topographical chart of the Tina Bar area, plus several other GPO printed topographical charts of the Vancouver area that generally pre-date 1980.  And I am reasonably certain that I can identify a buffer dam on the Oregon side of the river that is still there and is shown on that chart.  Using that, it appears to me that the penciled circles on the aerial photos are generally correct for the money find location.

[georger]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

By his you mean Tom or Harold? There is no way anyone could go off of Crystal's location because her testimony was never made public.

Tom's method involved him comparing on site FBI photos from 1980 with trees in 2008? He found a common tree, or remains of a tree. This tree I believe. Thats Tom ruler leaning on the tree. But that is not the old leaning tree shown in photos from 1980 but one to the north of it and closer to the water.

Shutter, do you have anything showing the general area that includes the Tina Bar gate?  As I have always said, I can't be certain about seeing any known features and the angles simply don't seem to be right.

In the 1979 aerial photo, the containment pit shows and there is a white line on its east side.  That white line is actually in a U shape (open on the south side) with cow feeding troughs on each side.  Some of the photos have what appear to be structures in the upper right-hand corner.  Those may actually be vehicles parked there.  Things apparently got extremely crowded at the Fazio's and, judging from the extended shadows, the photos of the beach were apparently taken in the late afternoon with the mid-February sun setting in the southwest for that relatively high latitude.

and (important) ... what gate the the Ingrams enter at? Where did they park? I cant see them strolling too far with kids in tow. That info hasnt been forthcoming from anyone/any document!

I think Sluggo used to have a picture of a gate on the very south side of the Fazio property that was on a narrow dirt road.  This would be just north of the marina area.  If the Ingrams entered that gate, they would probably not be able to get down to the water's edge until they had also passed through the area where the Tina Bar gate is now located.  Currently, the east shore landscape between Tina Bar and the marina has some vertical walls with the water at the base of those walls and there is simply no way to get past them without swimming.  Keep in mind that there are now some fences in that area that probably were not there in 1980.

A vid I saw years ago showed a gate access off River Road - so there are two gates, one at south entrance and one off River Rd - see chart attached.  The South gate is the one shown on Waymark that Sluggo posted and everyone has used it since. Fisherman take the gate off River Rd which winds down across the Fazio property going to the beach road in this photo ?  What route did you and Meyer take?

[georger]

I have this pic...

I was hoping that there was a picture taken during the digging that included both the dig areas and the gate.  Basically, the trees look about the same to me.  But with all the helicopters shooting aerial film, someone surely got a shot showing the Tina Bar gate, which is easy to identify on charts and photos, plus the diggers hard at work at two different locations in the same frame.  Such a shot would help us get things oriented quite a bit better. 

Meyer Louie has a Government Printing Office printed topographical chart of the Tina Bar area, plus several other GPO printed topographical charts of the Vancouver area that generally pre-date 1980.  And I am reasonably certain that I can identify a buffer dam on the Oregon side of the river that is still there and is shown on that chart.  Using that, it appears to me that the penciled circles on the aerial photos are generally correct for the money find location.

OK, I remember this now. The videos plural were by GreyCop - remember him. His vids of TBar and the Fazio property were excellent. Two entrances, one south (the Waymark gate) entrance, and one north which winds down across the Fazio north property and connects to the same shoreline road shown in FBI photos and KATU vid frames. You could (and still can?) get to the fishing beach from either direction. Greycop said the north road was winding so you had to take it easy, and he was right by the look of it. Here are today's Google Map views of these entrances from several minutes ago -

so again I ask, what route did you and Meyer take?

[Robert99]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

By his you mean Tom or Harold? There is no way anyone could go off of Crystal's location because her testimony was never made public.

Tom's method involved him comparing on site FBI photos from 1980 with trees in 2008? He found a common tree, or remains of a tree. This tree I believe. Thats Tom ruler leaning on the tree. But that is not the old leaning tree shown in photos from 1980 but one to the north of it and closer to the water.

Shutter, do you have anything showing the general area that includes the Tina Bar gate?  As I have always said, I can't be certain about seeing any known features and the angles simply don't seem to be right.

In the 1979 aerial photo, the containment pit shows and there is a white line on its east side.  That white line is actually in a U shape (open on the south side) with cow feeding troughs on each side.  Some of the photos have what appear to be structures in the upper right-hand corner.  Those may actually be vehicles parked there.  Things apparently got extremely crowded at the Fazio's and, judging from the extended shadows, the photos of the beach were apparently taken in the late afternoon with the mid-February sun setting in the southwest for that relatively high latitude.

and (important) ... what gate the the Ingrams enter at? Where did they park? I cant see them strolling too far with kids in tow. That info hasnt been forthcoming from anyone/any document!

I think Sluggo used to have a picture of a gate on the very south side of the Fazio property that was on a narrow dirt road.  This would be just north of the marina area.  If the Ingrams entered that gate, they would probably not be able to get down to the water's edge until they had also passed through the area where the Tina Bar gate is now located.  Currently, the east shore landscape between Tina Bar and the marina has some vertical walls with the water at the base of those walls and there is simply no way to get past them without swimming.  Keep in mind that there are now some fences in that area that probably were not there in 1980.

A vid I saw years ago showed a gate access off River Road - so there are two gates, one at south entrance and one off River Rd - see chart attached.  The South gate is the one shown on Waymark that Sluggo posted and everyone has used it since. Fisherman take the gate off River Rd which winds down across the Fazio property going to the beach road in this photo ?  What route did you and Meyer take?

All gates would have been off the NW Lower River Road.  At the marina, the land portion is only about 100 feet wide between the NW Lower River Road and the channel between the east shore of the Columbia River and Caterpillar Island.  The marina itself appears to be on Caterpillar Island.  The area between the road exit to the marina has apparently been fenced and a lot of sand digging and other such operations have been performed.

Every time that I have been there with Meyer Louie, we always entered through the gate to the Fazio property.  And drove right by the Fazio office, past their buildings, and turned west at the north end of the long building.  The Tina Bar gate is a few hundred feet down that road.

[georger]

so many are going off of his location when they go to T bar.

By his you mean Tom or Harold? There is no way anyone could go off of Crystal's location because her testimony was never made public.

Tom's method involved him comparing on site FBI photos from 1980 with trees in 2008? He found a common tree, or remains of a tree. This tree I believe. Thats Tom ruler leaning on the tree. But that is not the old leaning tree shown in photos from 1980 but one to the north of it and closer to the water.

Shutter, do you have anything showing the general area that includes the Tina Bar gate?  As I have always said, I can't be certain about seeing any known features and the angles simply don't seem to be right.

In the 1979 aerial photo, the containment pit shows and there is a white line on its east side.  That white line is actually in a U shape (open on the south side) with cow feeding troughs on each side.  Some of the photos have what appear to be structures in the upper right-hand corner.  Those may actually be vehicles parked there.  Things apparently got extremely crowded at the Fazio's and, judging from the extended shadows, the photos of the beach were apparently taken in the late afternoon with the mid-February sun setting in the southwest for that relatively high latitude.

and (important) ... what gate the the Ingrams enter at? Where did they park? I cant see them strolling too far with kids in tow. That info hasnt been forthcoming from anyone/any document!

I think Sluggo used to have a picture of a gate on the very south side of the Fazio property that was on a narrow dirt road.  This would be just north of the marina area.  If the Ingrams entered that gate, they would probably not be able to get down to the water's edge until they had also passed through the area where the Tina Bar gate is now located.  Currently, the east shore landscape between Tina Bar and the marina has some vertical walls with the water at the base of those walls and there is simply no way to get past them without swimming.  Keep in mind that there are now some fences in that area that probably were not there in 1980.

A vid I saw years ago showed a gate access off River Road - so there are two gates, one at south entrance and one off River Rd - see chart attached.  The South gate is the one shown on Waymark that Sluggo posted and everyone has used it since. Fisherman take the gate off River Rd which winds down across the Fazio property going to the beach road in this photo ?  What route did you and Meyer take?

All gates would have been off the NW Lower River Road.  At the marina, the land portion is only about 100 feet wide between the NW Lower River Road and the channel between the east shore of the Columbia River and Caterpillar Island.  The marina itself appears to be on Caterpillar Island.  The area between the road exit to the marina has apparently been fenced and a lot of sand digging and other such operations have been performed.

Every time that I have been there with Meyer Louie, we always entered through the gate to the Fazio property.  And drove right by the Fazio office, past their buildings, and turned west at the north end of the long building.  The Tina Bar gate is a few hundred feet down that road.

Correct. Then you and Meyer took the south entrance off River Road. You went right by the Fazio office.

You could have taken the north entrance as shown above. Remember, Greycop said the north entrance was the entrance he thought Cooper had taken because it was more hidden. Greycop filmed every inch of the north entrance showing how it connected to the beach road that connected with the south entrance you and Meyer took in. GreyCop knew the property well; he's been there a million times filming; he lives in VCR!

[Robert99]

I have this pic...

I was hoping that there was a picture taken during the digging that included both the dig areas and the gate.  Basically, the trees look about the same to me.  But with all the helicopters shooting aerial film, someone surely got a shot showing the Tina Bar gate, which is easy to identify on charts and photos, plus the diggers hard at work at two different locations in the same frame.  Such a shot would help us get things oriented quite a bit better. 

Meyer Louie has a Government Printing Office printed topographical chart of the Tina Bar area, plus several other GPO printed topographical charts of the Vancouver area that generally pre-date 1980.  And I am reasonably certain that I can identify a buffer dam on the Oregon side of the river that is still there and is shown on that chart.  Using that, it appears to me that the penciled circles on the aerial photos are generally correct for the money find location.

OK, I remember this now. The videos plural were by GreyCop - remember him. His vids of TBar and the Fazio property were excellent. Two entrances, one south (the Waymark gate) entrance, and one north which winds down across the Fazio north property and connects to the same shoreline road shown in FBI photos and KATU vid frames. You could (and still can?) get to the fishing beach from either direction. Greycop said the north road was winding so you had to take it easy, and he was right by the look of it. Here are today's Google Map views of these entrances from several minutes ago -

so again I ask, what route did you and Meyer take?

Those pictures don't resemble anything that I have seen before.  They do not have the Fazio office and other buildings in them and, frankly, I can't match them with anything I see in the 1979 aerial photograph.

[georger]

I have this pic...

I was hoping that there was a picture taken during the digging that included both the dig areas and the gate.  Basically, the trees look about the same to me.  But with all the helicopters shooting aerial film, someone surely got a shot showing the Tina Bar gate, which is easy to identify on charts and photos, plus the diggers hard at work at two different locations in the same frame.  Such a shot would help us get things oriented quite a bit better. 

Meyer Louie has a Government Printing Office printed topographical chart of the Tina Bar area, plus several other GPO printed topographical charts of the Vancouver area that generally pre-date 1980.  And I am reasonably certain that I can identify a buffer dam on the Oregon side of the river that is still there and is shown on that chart.  Using that, it appears to me that the penciled circles on the aerial photos are generally correct for the money find location.

OK, I remember this now. The videos plural were by GreyCop - remember him. His vids of TBar and the Fazio property were excellent. Two entrances, one south (the Waymark gate) entrance, and one north which winds down across the Fazio north property and connects to the same shoreline road shown in FBI photos and KATU vid frames. You could (and still can?) get to the fishing beach from either direction. Greycop said the north road was winding so you had to take it easy, and he was right by the look of it. Here are today's Google Map views of these entrances from several minutes ago -

so again I ask, what route did you and Meyer take?

Those pictures don't resemble anything that I have seen before.  They do not have the Fazio office and other buildings in them and, frankly, I can't match them with anything I see in the 1979 aerial photograph.

The phots are from ten minutes ago on Google Earth (Maps). The beach area has vanished since 79!

Let me do a mozaic of the whole property and mark the roads. Will work on it tonight, in addition to other things I have to do! Hope you saw the news release of water lake on Mars. The instrument used was built here, and people are from here!

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[Robert99]

I have this pic...

I was hoping that there was a picture taken during the digging that included both the dig areas and the gate.  Basically, the trees look about the same to me.  But with all the helicopters shooting aerial film, someone surely got a shot showing the Tina Bar gate, which is easy to identify on charts and photos, plus the diggers hard at work at two different locations in the same frame.  Such a shot would help us get things oriented quite a bit better. 

Meyer Louie has a Government Printing Office printed topographical chart of the Tina Bar area, plus several other GPO printed topographical charts of the Vancouver area that generally pre-date 1980.  And I am reasonably certain that I can identify a buffer dam on the Oregon side of the river that is still there and is shown on that chart.  Using that, it appears to me that the penciled circles on the aerial photos are generally correct for the money find location.

OK, I remember this now. The videos plural were by GreyCop - remember him. His vids of TBar and the Fazio property were excellent. Two entrances, one south (the Waymark gate) entrance, and one north which winds down across the Fazio north property and connects to the same shoreline road shown in FBI photos and KATU vid frames. You could (and still can?) get to the fishing beach from either direction. Greycop said the north road was winding so you had to take it easy, and he was right by the look of it. Here are today's Google Map views of these entrances from several minutes ago -

so again I ask, what route did you and Meyer take?

Those pictures don't resemble anything that I have seen before.  They do not have the Fazio office and other buildings in them and, frankly, I can't match them with anything I see in the 1979 aerial photograph.

The phots are from ten minutes ago on Google Earth (Maps). The beach area has vanished since 79!

Let me do a mozaic of the whole property and mark the roads. Will work on it tonight, in addition to other things I have to do! Hope you saw the news release of water lake on Mars. The instrument used was built here, and people are from here!

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If possible, include in this mosaic everything between the NW Lower River Road and the Columbia River in an East/West direction.  And from the northern tip of Caterpillar Island to as far north as possible (at least a mile) in a South/North direction.

The long North/South building at the Fazios' property is visible in the 1970 and subsequent aerial photographs of that area.

Heard about the water.