Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1915406 times)

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5085 on: June 19, 2018, 05:14:45 PM »
Georger wrote: "Its an FBI investigation run amuck!"

Hindsight is 20-20, but we all agree that NORJACK certainly wasn't the FBI's best work.

They did some things really well, but on others, their lack of rigor was simply appalling.  Somebody in Quantico should have been very embarrassed by Tom and Al's tie discoveries.

And losing the cigarette butts? Good Lord! If they really were lost, there goes almost any chance of a successful prosecution.

377

« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 05:16:19 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5086 on: June 19, 2018, 08:40:56 PM »
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with holding features of a suspect wouldn't be a good idea..that's how you find them..they hold back things said or done that would help weed out other suspects..they have something that can weed them out...or something you just can't speculate like other things..

They withed the turkey neck feature until Gray touted it. So much about the Cooper case just does not make sense. I sometimes cant decide which is the bigger mystery: Cooper or 'the case about Cooper'. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. Its an FBI investigation run amuck!

I believe they based the description from multiple witnesses..I don't think they were hiding the fact of Mitchell saying this  but he was the only one to use that reference. the same can be said about the "Marcelled hair" neither are in the description since nobody else used these terms to identify Cooper..multiple people stated black or brown suit while only one stated rust color which was also deleted from the description..
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 08:43:11 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline dice

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5087 on: June 20, 2018, 09:35:38 AM »
Quote
I am disturbed

And there it is... the Freudian slip.... we've been waiting for it.... :good post: :bravo:
 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5088 on: June 20, 2018, 01:17:44 PM »
As I understand from reading some posts:

Knowledge of the aft stairs: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Knowledge of the speed, flaps, air pressure: Had to come from working at Boeing or being on planes.
Particles on the tie: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Parachute experience: Had to come from the military, smoke jumping, or a lot of skydives.

None of this could have been learned from books, or talking to people, or from a few skydives? Someone who is in his 40's who given the time frame probably served in the military during World War II or Korea could not at some point in their lifetime travels have talked to enough people to pick up some of this basic knowledge? Or learned some from their own experience?  Or learned just enough to think they could pull it off?

Again, I'm saying this was a borderline amateur hijacking.  There was planning, but not the type I would expect from an experienced jumper or someone with elite military training.  Now, if the intent was to hide their expertise and planning skills, then DB Cooper did a really great job.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5089 on: June 20, 2018, 02:27:18 PM »
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As I understand from reading some posts:

Knowledge of the aft stairs: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Knowledge of the speed, flaps, air pressure: Had to come from working at Boeing or being on planes.
Particles on the tie: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Parachute experience: Had to come from the military, smoke jumping, or a lot of skydives.

None of this could have been learned from books, or talking to people, or from a few skydives? Someone who is in his 40's who given the time frame probably served in the military during World War II or Korea could not at some point in their lifetime travels have talked to enough people to pick up some of this basic knowledge? Or learned some from their own experience?  Or learned just enough to think they could pull it off?

Again, I'm saying this was a borderline amateur hijacking.  There was planning, but not the type I would expect from an experienced jumper or someone with elite military training.  Now, if the intent was to hide their expertise and planning skills, then DB Cooper did a really great job.

I,respectively disagree with most of your “ had to “ conclusions. I never worked for Boeing but I was very aware of a number of the facts you mentioned but not all ! There is no proof that Cooper’s tie was actually even owned by him for any length of time.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5090 on: June 20, 2018, 02:33:40 PM »
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As I understand from reading some posts:

Knowledge of the aft stairs: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Knowledge of the speed, flaps, air pressure: Had to come from working at Boeing or being on planes.
Particles on the tie: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Parachute experience: Had to come from the military, smoke jumping, or a lot of skydives.

None of this could have been learned from books, or talking to people, or from a few skydives? Someone who is in his 40's who given the time frame probably served in the military during World War II or Korea could not at some point in their lifetime travels have talked to enough people to pick up some of this basic knowledge? Or learned some from their own experience?  Or learned just enough to think they could pull it off?

Again, I'm saying this was a borderline amateur hijacking.  There was planning, but not the type I would expect from an experienced jumper or someone with elite military training.  Now, if the intent was to hide their expertise and planning skills, then DB Cooper did a really great job.

I,respectively disagree with most of your “ had to “ conclusions. I never worked for Boeing but I was very aware of a number of the facts you mentioned but not all ! There is no proof that Cooper’s tie was actually even owned by him for any length of time.

Kermit-In other words, you agree with me.  DB Cooper did not have to work at Boeing, be a paratrooper, or be an expert. 
 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5091 on: June 20, 2018, 02:53:11 PM »
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As I understand from reading some posts:

Knowledge of the aft stairs: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Knowledge of the speed, flaps, air pressure: Had to come from working at Boeing or being on planes.
Particles on the tie: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Parachute experience: Had to come from the military, smoke jumping, or a lot of skydives.

None of this could have been learned from books, or talking to people, or from a few skydives? Someone who is in his 40's who given the time frame probably served in the military during World War II or Korea could not at some point in their lifetime travels have talked to enough people to pick up some of this basic knowledge? Or learned some from their own experience?  Or learned just enough to think they could pull it off?

Again, I'm saying this was a borderline amateur hijacking.  There was planning, but not the type I would expect from an experienced jumper or someone with elite military training.  Now, if the intent was to hide their expertise and planning skills, then DB Cooper did a really great job.

I,respectively disagree with most of your “ had to “ conclusions. I never worked for Boeing but I was very aware of a number of the facts you mentioned but not all ! There is no proof that Cooper’s tie was actually even owned by him for any length of time.

Kermit-In other words, you agree with me.  DB Cooper did not have to work at Boeing, be a paratrooper, or be an expert.

Yes I,agree 100%
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5092 on: June 20, 2018, 03:10:27 PM »
Fcastle 866 wrote: "Kermit-In other words, you agree with me.  DB Cooper did not have to work at Boeing, be a paratrooper, or be an expert."

True, Cooper didn't have to have those connections. BUT, I believe he was 727 savvy. The flight configuration orders he gave weren't "go slow and low", they were precise and specific, accomplishing exactly what he needed for a successful low enough, slow enough non-hypoxic exit.

I also think he knew at least some info about Boeings 727 airdrop tests. Unless he was POSITIVE he could get out of the 727 when it was airborne, then he was running a huge risk of entering an aluminum jail cell that would deliver him to waiting cops at the next airport the plane would land at. Knowledge about the SAT 727 airdrops over Thailand alone would probably be insufficient. That plane had been modified especially for airdrops. Cooper needed to know that an unmodified airline 727 could be exited in flight.

I also think Cooper knew something about parachutes. Putting on an NB 6 or NB 8 harness isn't intuitively easy. The chest strap setup is weird, it involves buckling together opposing apexes of V shapes of webbing, not at all like traditional belt-like chest straps. I had a hard time doing it the first time. Folks who tried it at the Portland symposium were baffled for quite a while.

Lots of people who have donned aircrew bailout chutes and know a lot about airdrops have never jumped. Do I think Cooper was a jumper? I do, but it's possible that he was not.

A night jump over unknown terrain in bad weather is scary as hell. Cooper had balls, that's for sure. 

377
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 03:26:44 PM by 377 »
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5093 on: June 20, 2018, 03:34:07 PM »
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As I understand from reading some posts:

Knowledge of the aft stairs: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Knowledge of the speed, flaps, air pressure: Had to come from working at Boeing or being on planes.
Particles on the tie: Had to come from working at Boeing.
Parachute experience: Had to come from the military, smoke jumping, or a lot of skydives.

None of this could have been learned from books, or talking to people, or from a few skydives? Someone who is in his 40's who given the time frame probably served in the military during World War II or Korea could not at some point in their lifetime travels have talked to enough people to pick up some of this basic knowledge? Or learned some from their own experience?  Or learned just enough to think they could pull it off?

Again, I'm saying this was a borderline amateur hijacking.  There was planning, but not the type I would expect from an experienced jumper or someone with elite military training.  Now, if the intent was to hide their expertise and planning skills, then DB Cooper did a really great job.

I,respectively disagree with most of your “ had to “ conclusions. I never worked for Boeing but I was very aware of a number of the facts you mentioned but not all ! There is no proof that Cooper’s tie was actually even owned by him for any length of time.

Kermit-In other words, you agree with me.  DB Cooper did not have to work at Boeing, be a paratrooper, or be an expert.

Fcastle866, you are correct.  Cooper did not have to work at Boeing, be a paratrooper, or be an expert in anything.

There are only three things to suggest that Cooper had any specific aeronautical knowledge or experience.

First, Cooper told Tina that he did not need to read the instructions on how to put on and use a parachute.  Tina said that he then put the parachute on like he had experience in doing so.  There is no information as to whether or not Tina had ever seen a parachute before or seen someone put one on.

Second, Cooper told Tina that he knew the 727 could takeoff with the rear stairs down.  He was apparently referring to them being in a "floating" position rather than being in a locked down position which would have presented difficulties in rotating the aircraft for liftoff.  Rataczak had argued with Cooper and told him that the stairs had to be locked closed for takeoff.  Cooper agreed to takeoff with the stairs up and locked just to get airborne.

Thirdly, Cooper knew that the 727 could fly with the rear stairs in a "floating" position.  Otherwise, he would not specifically sought out a 727 for the hijacking.

The second and third items above are basically the only unique things that Cooper knew about the 727.  He did not have enough knowledge of the rear stairs to know how to lower them even after being instructed by Tina.

Cooper's demonstrated knowledge of parachutes could have been acquired elsewhere in less than five minutes.  His knowledge of the aft stairs on the 727 could have been obtained if he had witnessed a single test flight of the FAA mandated flight tests.  Cooper's specified flap setting and landing gear position, as well as the altitude and speed, are not unique to the 727.  But he could possibly have also obtained all of his 727 information from flight manuals, not news stories, on the 727.

Has this site been blessed with a librarian?  Specifically, a librarian that knows how to find things in the National Archives and Records Administration and other government organizations?
   
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5094 on: June 20, 2018, 03:50:36 PM »
"But he could possibly have also obtained all of his 727 information from flight manuals, not news stories, on the 727."

Not really. I had a large 727-100 manual in 1971. Nothing in it provides the in flight exit info needed for NORJACK. The FLIGHT article did give some useful info.

377
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 03:52:16 PM by 377 »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5095 on: June 20, 2018, 04:16:55 PM »
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"But he could possibly have also obtained all of his 727 information from flight manuals, not news stories, on the 727."

Not really. I had a large 727-100 manual in 1971. Nothing in it provides the in flight exit info needed for NORJACK. The FLIGHT article did give some useful info.

377

That moves you up in the suspect list.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5096 on: June 20, 2018, 04:26:09 PM »
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Fcastle 866 wrote: "Kermit-In other words, you agree with me.  DB Cooper did not have to work at Boeing, be a paratrooper, or be an expert."

...

I also think Cooper knew something about parachutes. Putting on an NB 6 or NB 8 harness isn't intuitively easy. The chest strap setup is weird, it involves buckling together opposing apexes of V shapes of webbing, not at all like traditional belt-like chest straps. I had a hard time doing it the first time. Folks who tried it at the Portland symposium were baffled for quite a while.

Lots of people who have donned aircrew bailout chutes and know a lot about airdrops have never jumped. Do I think Cooper was a jumper? I do, but it's possible that he was not.

A night jump over unknown terrain in bad weather is scary as hell. Cooper had balls, that's for sure. 

377

My father, who had never seen an NB6 or an NB8 during his military career, was able to inspect, strap-in and adjust an NB8 within fifteen or twenty seconds of ever seeing one. (He did not, however, find the packing card.)

Military folk use the equipment given to them, regardless of how familiar it is to them. They just figure it out and go from there. Someone accustomed to specialized equipment probably has certain expectations and might be less adaptable to variation. (No offense to any skydivers reading this.)
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5097 on: June 20, 2018, 04:27:07 PM »
I have a passion for jumping from non-conventional jumps and have been a long time Boeing tech fan. I NEVER realized a 727 could be jumped until Cooper did it. I was absolutely stunned. My first thought was: "He HAD to be a skydiver, so which one of us did it?". The next was: " HOW THE HELL DID HE KNOW A 727 COULD BE JUMPED?'

I so wanted the FBI to knock on my door and interrogate me as a suspect, but they wisely never did.

It was a badge of honor in skydiving circles to be a suspect. Many lied about being interrogated by the FBI. It impressed women.

377
 
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Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5098 on: June 20, 2018, 04:29:12 PM »
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"But he could possibly have also obtained all of his 727 information from flight manuals, not news stories, on the 727."

Not really. I had a large 727-100 manual in 1971. Nothing in it provides the in flight exit info needed for NORJACK. The FLIGHT article did give some useful info.

377

Let me add "test reports" to the above.  Is your 727-100 manual from a specific airline?  Or is it a complete description of the systems as well as the performance of that aircraft?

The speed and altitude that Cooper specified are "common knowledge" and are not specifically unique to the 727.  If Cooper had some aviation experience, then keeping the landing gear down is obvious and he could easily guess the flap setting that would be sufficient.

On the rear stairs, Cooper would need to know that he could not access those stairs if the aircraft was pressurized, this is implied in his other statements.  But he knew other things about those stairs as discussed previously.

Also, I have not seen anything that would indicate that Cooper planned to open the parachute while on the stairs or immediately after jumping.  Perhaps an experienced jumper would do it that way but an experienced jumper would also know to get a skydiver rig in the first place.  I do not see any indication that Cooper had ever jumped before.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 04:35:01 PM by Robert99 »
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5099 on: June 20, 2018, 04:30:37 PM »
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I have a passion for jumping from non-conventional jumps and have been a long time Boeing tech fan. I NEVER realized a 727 could be jumped until Cooper did it. I was absolutely stunned. My first thought was: "He HAD to be a skydiver, so which one of us did it?". The next was: " HOW THE HELL DID HE KNOW A 727 COULD BE JUMPED?'

I so wanted the FBI to knock on my door and interrogate me as a suspect, but they wisely never did.

It was a badge of honor in skydiving circles to be a suspect. Many lied about being interrogated by the FBI. It impressed women.

377

What do you make of the conversation about jumping from jets in August of 1971 at the Elsinore Paracenter found in the FOIA FBI documents?