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[Lynn]

Nothing "cute" about the extensive buried shard field residing directly below the currency stacks. No way those shards were deliberately planted. Nature put em there, not a person with a scheme.

I used to be a believer in the plant theory to explain the T Bar currency find, but the shard field (well documented in a TV news video) forced me to change my mind.

377

I don't think Cooper planted the bills to fool anyone, or at all. Before I get smoked, though, lemme put my speculation banner up:

lazy Sunday speculation, and fie on you, T-Bar, you seductress
The things that niggle me about the money and Cooper are:

1) he was carrying a crapload of stuff, too much to be inconspicuous, including 20+ lbs of money in a bank bag. He'd have looked like one of the Beagle Boys making it to the nearest road with that much stuff on him.
2) the compression of the bills vs. the way Kaye found they fanned in water. T-Bar is where the bills ended up (but not all of them) and the shards show they were at T-Bar for some time undergoing natural burial and uncovering. I don't think they started there. I think they were compressed elsewhere and eventually dislodged by whatever natural force (wind, flood, nesting birds, etc), winding up on T-Bar. That does not mean they were initially planted. But they could have been temporarily hidden and damaged before retrieval OR could have hit the ground with a dead man and been carried by the forces of nature later.

McCoy had to ditch his loot as well - he got caught because someone was onto him, as far as I've read anyway, but the loot itself was hidden in a culvert. The authorities also found all the Honduran guy's cash in a lump sum but no details were ever released on it. Bottom line: unless Cooper had an accomplice/vehicle (and the requisite equipment/ESP to find them on the ground!) he HAD to temporarily ditch at least some of his stuff to make the getaway.

Some of the money could come with him. The briefcase (and mysterious white bag of his own) could have contained quite a bit. Plus with an overcoat, suit jacket, shirt and pants, he had at least 9 pockets, and all we know he had with him for sure is a knife and likely a wallet, though the ticket agent doesn't specifically remember one.

He couldn't have returned for the money right away unless pretending to be a volunteer in the ground search or a treasure hunter. By the time he got back to the loot, part or all of it may already have been damaged (the bills do seem to show two levels of damage) and he may simply have discarded it. If it got found, it makes his death look more likely, which can only work in his favour. (That's why I don't think he wrote the letters. He was better off dead in the feds' eyes. Most criminals are not Zodiac. Most don't dare the feds to catch them.)

The discarded (not planted) money then had years to make it to T-Bar, by whatever means. He wouldn't have discarded it by burial; that would prove he lived. If he ditched it above-ground, the first squall could have carried it anywhere. And there would have been a lot of squalls and other weather factors over the years.

Equally possible: Cooper died, and part of the loot ended up at T-Bar. It just doesn't explain where the rest of the money and all that stuff went. Cooper himself could have been mauled and eaten. But he had a crapton of material on him as well that would have been of no interest to a wild animal. If he crashed into the earth, he also would likely have dropped stuff of no interest to animals. So where is it?

End of lazy Sunday speculationBy the way, one more question - anyone remember much detail about the raincoat? Was it a trenchcoat? Did it have a belt?

[georger]

Nothing "cute" about the extensive buried shard field residing directly below the currency stacks. No way those shards were deliberately planted. Nature put em there, not a person with a scheme.

I used to be a believer in the plant theory to explain the T Bar currency find, but the shard field (well documented in a TV news video) forced me to change my mind.

377

I don't think Cooper planted the bills to fool anyone, or at all. Before I get smoked, though, lemme put my speculation banner up:

lazy Sunday speculation, and fie on you, T-Bar, you seductress
The things that niggle me about the money and Cooper are:

1) he was carrying a crapload of stuff, too much to be inconspicuous, including 20+ lbs of money in a bank bag. He'd have looked like one of the Beagle Boys making it to the nearest road with that much stuff on him.
2) the compression of the bills vs. the way Kaye found they fanned in water. T-Bar is where the bills ended up (but not all of them) and the shards show they were at T-Bar for some time undergoing natural burial and uncovering. I don't think they started there. I think they were compressed elsewhere and eventually dislodged by whatever natural force (wind, flood, nesting birds, etc), winding up on T-Bar. That does not mean they were initially planted. But they could have been temporarily hidden and damaged before retrieval OR could have hit the ground with a dead man and been carried by the forces of nature later.

McCoy had to ditch his loot as well - he got caught because someone was onto him, as far as I've read anyway, but the loot itself was hidden in a culvert. The authorities also found all the Honduran guy's cash in a lump sum but no details were ever released on it. Bottom line: unless Cooper had an accomplice/vehicle (and the requisite equipment/ESP to find them on the ground!) he HAD to temporarily ditch at least some of his stuff to make the getaway.

Some of the money could come with him. The briefcase (and mysterious white bag of his own) could have contained quite a bit. Plus with an overcoat, suit jacket, shirt and pants, he had at least 9 pockets, and all we know he had with him for sure is a knife and likely a wallet, though the ticket agent doesn't specifically remember one.

He couldn't have returned for the money right away unless pretending to be a volunteer in the ground search or a treasure hunter. By the time he got back to the loot, part or all of it may already have been damaged (the bills do seem to show two levels of damage) and he may simply have discarded it. If it got found, it makes his death look more likely, which can only work in his favour. (That's why I don't think he wrote the letters. He was better off dead in the feds' eyes. Most criminals are not Zodiac. Most don't dare the feds to catch them.)

The discarded (not planted) money then had years to make it to T-Bar, by whatever means. He wouldn't have discarded it by burial; that would prove he lived. If he ditched it above-ground, the first squall could have carried it anywhere. And there would have been a lot of squalls and other weather factors over the years.

Equally possible: Cooper died, and part of the loot ended up at T-Bar. It just doesn't explain where the rest of the money and all that stuff went. Cooper himself could have been mauled and eaten. But he had a crapton of material on him as well that would have been of no interest to a wild animal. If he crashed into the earth, he also would likely have dropped stuff of no interest to animals. So where is it?

End of lazy Sunday speculationBy the way, one more question - anyone remember much detail about the raincoat? Was it a trenchcoat? Did it have a belt?

Too broad to answer -

Read the thread here and at DZ re-Tina Bar Money Find.

 

[FLYJACK]

Blevins keeps complaining about this forum's link/image access policy...

For the record..
I post links and images for the member's here to evaluate, NOT for the general public. If they were open to all I WOULD NOT POST THEM. A fully public forum is devalued by dissuading shared intellectual inquiries. There are fully public forums for people if they choose..

Shutter's policy is the right one, membership has its privileges..

Fly,,

[georger]

Blevins keeps complaining about this forum's link/image access policy...

For the record..
I post links and images for the member's here to evaluate, NOT for the general public. If they were open to all I WOULD NOT POST THEM. A fully public forum is devalued by dissuading shared intellectual inquiries. There are fully public forums for people if they choose..

Shutter's policy is the right one, membership has its privileges..

Fly,,

Just ignore the Parasite ...  if he does something to you personally report it to his isp and call his PD at Auburn WA.

That's it in a nutshell.

Its a tragedy that the world has to put up with a parasite like that.

[Shutter]

The whole thing bothers Blevins more than anyone else...the guy is truly obsessed with anything I do...he filled Bruce's site up with nothing but shutter related topics...shutter paid someone, shutter did this, shutter does that....he does everything he bitches about....

[fcastle866]

Is it fairly certain that no money besides the Tena Bar money was ever found? Did any money show up through the years with serial numbers that were close matches, but not exact? It's a fairly simple process to change the appearance of serial numbers on money. There aren't a whole lot of reasons to change a serial number, except in a case like this. A 3 becomes an 8 easily with some green ink and a steady hand or a stencil. I've seen it done, and it's hard to tell. A C becomes a G. An F becomes an E. By erasing a bit, an 8 becomes a 3, an E a F. Lots of possibilities. Just by making the 3's into 8's, he could have moved over $100k.

[Shutter]

They always hope that money will surface when they mark them...keep in mind that marked bills doesn't mean actually marking on them..they do that, but when they record the numbers they become "marked"

The main reason is for court purposes, or trial to convict. I'm pretty sure the bills could be used across the country and not be noticed unless large amounts were used. then they might check them..I doubt banks or other businesses were waiting all day for Cooper twenties to fall into there laps in Michigan, or Georgia..they catch on to counterfeits more than anything else. altering 10,000 of them perfectly, doubtful...

[Lynn]

Nothing "cute" about the extensive buried shard field residing directly below the currency stacks. No way those shards were deliberately planted. Nature put em there, not a person with a scheme.

I used to be a believer in the plant theory to explain the T Bar currency find, but the shard field (well documented in a TV news video) forced me to change my mind.

377

I don't think Cooper planted the bills to fool anyone, or at all. Before I get smoked, though, lemme put my speculation banner up:

lazy Sunday speculation, and fie on you, T-Bar, you seductress
The things that niggle me about the money and Cooper are:

1) he was carrying a crapload of stuff, too much to be inconspicuous, including 20+ lbs of money in a bank bag. He'd have looked like one of the Beagle Boys making it to the nearest road with that much stuff on him.
2) the compression of the bills vs. the way Kaye found they fanned in water. T-Bar is where the bills ended up (but not all of them) and the shards show they were at T-Bar for some time undergoing natural burial and uncovering. I don't think they started there. I think they were compressed elsewhere and eventually dislodged by whatever natural force (wind, flood, nesting birds, etc), winding up on T-Bar. That does not mean they were initially planted. But they could have been temporarily hidden and damaged before retrieval OR could have hit the ground with a dead man and been carried by the forces of nature later.

McCoy had to ditch his loot as well - he got caught because someone was onto him, as far as I've read anyway, but the loot itself was hidden in a culvert. The authorities also found all the Honduran guy's cash in a lump sum but no details were ever released on it. Bottom line: unless Cooper had an accomplice/vehicle (and the requisite equipment/ESP to find them on the ground!) he HAD to temporarily ditch at least some of his stuff to make the getaway.

Some of the money could come with him. The briefcase (and mysterious white bag of his own) could have contained quite a bit. Plus with an overcoat, suit jacket, shirt and pants, he had at least 9 pockets, and all we know he had with him for sure is a knife and likely a wallet, though the ticket agent doesn't specifically remember one.

He couldn't have returned for the money right away unless pretending to be a volunteer in the ground search or a treasure hunter. By the time he got back to the loot, part or all of it may already have been damaged (the bills do seem to show two levels of damage) and he may simply have discarded it. If it got found, it makes his death look more likely, which can only work in his favour. (That's why I don't think he wrote the letters. He was better off dead in the feds' eyes. Most criminals are not Zodiac. Most don't dare the feds to catch them.)

The discarded (not planted) money then had years to make it to T-Bar, by whatever means. He wouldn't have discarded it by burial; that would prove he lived. If he ditched it above-ground, the first squall could have carried it anywhere. And there would have been a lot of squalls and other weather factors over the years.

Equally possible: Cooper died, and part of the loot ended up at T-Bar. It just doesn't explain where the rest of the money and all that stuff went. Cooper himself could have been mauled and eaten. But he had a crapton of material on him as well that would have been of no interest to a wild animal. If he crashed into the earth, he also would likely have dropped stuff of no interest to animals. So where is it?

End of lazy Sunday speculationBy the way, one more question - anyone remember much detail about the raincoat? Was it a trenchcoat? Did it have a belt?

Too broad to answer -

Read the thread here and at DZ re-Tina Bar Money Find.

 

Have read both at various times (probably not all of the DZ because that thing's just too annoying to read - life's too short to sort the wheat from the chaff on there, and at the end of it all, even the wheat didn't turn up our lad. I have read most of the Ckret posts on DZ but as copied to the vault. ) However, I've seen nothing that gives a definitive explanation for the money find at T-Bar - lots of spec all round, nothing proven -  for all people keep trying to pretend there's been anything gleaned from it but more questions. I'm sure most of us have a fave theory (and equally sure none of us is immune from confirmation bias.) What none of us has is a corpse, the rest of Cooper's gear, or a circulated twenty. Still Schrödinger's Skyjacker.

 

[377]

They always hope that money will surface when they mark them...keep in mind that marked bills doesn't mean actually marking on them..they do that, but when they record the numbers they become "marked"

The main reason is for court purposes, or trial to convict. I'm pretty sure the bills could be used across the country and not be noticed unless large amounts were used. then they might check them..I doubt banks or other businesses were waiting all day for Cooper twenties to fall into there laps in Michigan, or Georgia..they catch on to counterfeits more than anything else. altering 10,000 of them perfectly, doubtful...

I defended a few accused bank robbers, not in their bank robbery trials but in collateral cases. In two bank jobs, the robbers took "bait money" which had SNs recorded. They spent it all, thousands, and not one hit was recorded. I talked with other lawyers who had similar experiences. Not one of them could recall a bait money hit in general circulation. Of course, these small-time robberies didn't receive anywhere near the press coverage that NORJACK did, so who besides the Treasury Dept. would be looking? One defendant told me there were organized crime brokers who would buy hot non-counterfeit money for a large discount. Ckret was a bank robbery specialist. Did he ever opine on this subject?

377 

[georger]

Nothing "cute" about the extensive buried shard field residing directly below the currency stacks. No way those shards were deliberately planted. Nature put em there, not a person with a scheme.

I used to be a believer in the plant theory to explain the T Bar currency find, but the shard field (well documented in a TV news video) forced me to change my mind.

377

I don't think Cooper planted the bills to fool anyone, or at all. Before I get smoked, though, lemme put my speculation banner up:

lazy Sunday speculation, and fie on you, T-Bar, you seductress
The things that niggle me about the money and Cooper are:

1) he was carrying a crapload of stuff, too much to be inconspicuous, including 20+ lbs of money in a bank bag. He'd have looked like one of the Beagle Boys making it to the nearest road with that much stuff on him.
2) the compression of the bills vs. the way Kaye found they fanned in water. T-Bar is where the bills ended up (but not all of them) and the shards show they were at T-Bar for some time undergoing natural burial and uncovering. I don't think they started there. I think they were compressed elsewhere and eventually dislodged by whatever natural force (wind, flood, nesting birds, etc), winding up on T-Bar. That does not mean they were initially planted. But they could have been temporarily hidden and damaged before retrieval OR could have hit the ground with a dead man and been carried by the forces of nature later.

McCoy had to ditch his loot as well - he got caught because someone was onto him, as far as I've read anyway, but the loot itself was hidden in a culvert. The authorities also found all the Honduran guy's cash in a lump sum but no details were ever released on it. Bottom line: unless Cooper had an accomplice/vehicle (and the requisite equipment/ESP to find them on the ground!) he HAD to temporarily ditch at least some of his stuff to make the getaway.

Some of the money could come with him. The briefcase (and mysterious white bag of his own) could have contained quite a bit. Plus with an overcoat, suit jacket, shirt and pants, he had at least 9 pockets, and all we know he had with him for sure is a knife and likely a wallet, though the ticket agent doesn't specifically remember one.

He couldn't have returned for the money right away unless pretending to be a volunteer in the ground search or a treasure hunter. By the time he got back to the loot, part or all of it may already have been damaged (the bills do seem to show two levels of damage) and he may simply have discarded it. If it got found, it makes his death look more likely, which can only work in his favour. (That's why I don't think he wrote the letters. He was better off dead in the feds' eyes. Most criminals are not Zodiac. Most don't dare the feds to catch them.)

The discarded (not planted) money then had years to make it to T-Bar, by whatever means. He wouldn't have discarded it by burial; that would prove he lived. If he ditched it above-ground, the first squall could have carried it anywhere. And there would have been a lot of squalls and other weather factors over the years.

Equally possible: Cooper died, and part of the loot ended up at T-Bar. It just doesn't explain where the rest of the money and all that stuff went. Cooper himself could have been mauled and eaten. But he had a crapton of material on him as well that would have been of no interest to a wild animal. If he crashed into the earth, he also would likely have dropped stuff of no interest to animals. So where is it?

End of lazy Sunday speculationBy the way, one more question - anyone remember much detail about the raincoat? Was it a trenchcoat? Did it have a belt?

Too broad to answer -

Read the thread here and at DZ re-Tina Bar Money Find.

 

Have read both at various times (probably not all of the DZ because that thing's just too annoying to read - life's too short to sort the wheat from the chaff on there, and at the end of it all, even the wheat didn't turn up our lad. I have read most of the Ckret posts on DZ but as copied to the vault. ) However, I've seen nothing that gives a definitive explanation for the money find at T-Bar - lots of spec all round, nothing proven -  for all people keep trying to pretend there's been anything gleaned from it but more questions. I'm sure most of us have a fave theory (and equally sure none of us is immune from confirmation bias.) What none of us has is a corpse, the rest of Cooper's gear, or a circulated twenty. Still Schrödinger's Skyjacker.

 

Did you know Schrödinger well?

I dont think Schrödinger has anything to do with the problem at hand!

[fcastle866]

377, interesting point about the bank robbers and none of the numbers showing a "hit".  That certainly lends credibility to the theory that the money could have been spent.  It would have been hard to check numbers back then, and after a few months, even if the FBI found one, it would only have indicated that the money was spent. So, unless they found bills in the possession of one of the suspects, then it may not have been a good use of their time.  I believe the Tena Bar money floated there, or was dredged, or maybe even flew off during the descent.  There are many ways it could have gotten there.  Maybe it was dragged around the forest through the years and ended up in a creek. Regardless, I don't think it was planted, and unless the chemical tests can show where it had been, I see the Tena Bar money as a distraction.

I just have a hard time believing that none of the money ever showed up in circulation. Not one $20 bill blew around and was picked up by a hiker and then spent??  A counterfeiter could have easily doctored those bills, probably all of them.  Easily.  Looking at Tosaw's book that has the serial numbers in the back, I see a lot of bills with a 3 in the 8 digits of the serial number that could easily have been changed.  Or, someone could have just spent it without doctoring it.  Anyone who gets a $20 from 1963 or 1969 could be checking the numbers.  There are a couple of 1950's in there too, but that's a long shot.  I've heard the government keeps track of the bills that are destroyed, but I have yet to verify that.  Looking at the probability distributions, one would not have to check a lot of bills to have a high probability of finding one.  10,000 total bills, minus the Tena Bar money.  I'd input every number of any 1963 or 1969 bill you find in a store or online into a spreadsheet or program, and check to see if any numbers match closely with the DBC money.  That would indicate doctoring.  Too bad we can't get a whole bunch of 1963 and 1969 $20s and start putting the numbers into a program that checks for close matches. 

[Robert99]

377, interesting point about the bank robbers and none of the numbers showing a "hit".  That certainly lends credibility to the theory that the money could have been spent.  It would have been hard to check numbers back then, and after a few months, even if the FBI found one, it would only have indicated that the money was spent. So, unless they found bills in the possession of one of the suspects, then it may not have been a good use of their time.  I believe the Tena Bar money floated there, or was dredged, or maybe even flew off during the descent.  There are many ways it could have gotten there.  Maybe it was dragged around the forest through the years and ended up in a creek. Regardless, I don't think it was planted, and unless the chemical tests can show where it had been, I see the Tena Bar money as a distraction.

I just have a hard time believing that none of the money ever showed up in circulation. Not one $20 bill blew around and was picked up by a hiker and then spent??  A counterfeiter could have easily doctored those bills, probably all of them.  Easily.  Looking at Tosaw's book that has the serial numbers in the back, I see a lot of bills with a 3 in the 8 digits of the serial number that could easily have been changed.  Or, someone could have just spent it without doctoring it.  Anyone who gets a $20 from 1963 or 1969 could be checking the numbers.  There are a couple of 1950's in there too, but that's a long shot.  I've heard the government keeps track of the bills that are destroyed, but I have yet to verify that.  Looking at the probability distributions, one would not have to check a lot of bills to have a high probability of finding one.  10,000 total bills, minus the Tena Bar money.  I'd input every number of any 1963 or 1969 bill you find in a store or online into a spreadsheet or program, and check to see if any numbers match closely with the DBC money.  That would indicate doctoring.  Too bad we can't get a whole bunch of 1963 and 1969 $20s and start putting the numbers into a program that checks for close matches.

Read more on the matter of the bills and you will discover that they were specifically selected for ransoms and for easy identification.  For instance, there are only three series years in the whole 10,000 bills.  Other details about the bills have been discussed at length on this site and the previous site at DZ.  But it would be very easy to set up a "checklist" so that a bank teller could check the serial number of one of the series years in just a matter of seconds.

How the money got to Tina Bar, or at least the Tina Bar area, is a relatively easy question to answer.  But explaining how those bill fragments got buried there, some as deep as two or three feet, is a real problem.  Regardless, the money find at Tina Bar basically explains what happened to Cooper and the rest of the ransom money.   

[georger]

377, interesting point about the bank robbers and none of the numbers showing a "hit".  That certainly lends credibility to the theory that the money could have been spent.  It would have been hard to check numbers back then, and after a few months, even if the FBI found one, it would only have indicated that the money was spent. So, unless they found bills in the possession of one of the suspects, then it may not have been a good use of their time.  I believe the Tena Bar money floated there, or was dredged, or maybe even flew off during the descent.  There are many ways it could have gotten there.  Maybe it was dragged around the forest through the years and ended up in a creek. Regardless, I don't think it was planted, and unless the chemical tests can show where it had been, I see the Tena Bar money as a distraction.

I just have a hard time believing that none of the money ever showed up in circulation. Not one $20 bill blew around and was picked up by a hiker and then spent??  A counterfeiter could have easily doctored those bills, probably all of them.  Easily.  Looking at Tosaw's book that has the serial numbers in the back, I see a lot of bills with a 3 in the 8 digits of the serial number that could easily have been changed.  Or, someone could have just spent it without doctoring it.  Anyone who gets a $20 from 1963 or 1969 could be checking the numbers.  There are a couple of 1950's in there too, but that's a long shot.  I've heard the government keeps track of the bills that are destroyed, but I have yet to verify that.  Looking at the probability distributions, one would not have to check a lot of bills to have a high probability of finding one.  10,000 total bills, minus the Tena Bar money.  I'd input every number of any 1963 or 1969 bill you find in a store or online into a spreadsheet or program, and check to see if any numbers match closely with the DBC money.  That would indicate doctoring.  Too bad we can't get a whole bunch of 1963 and 1969 $20s and start putting the numbers into a program that checks for close matches.

If there was ever a case that could benefit from forensic methods, this is one of them! They just had to wait 5-30 years for technology to catch up.   

For example, on what date was the money buried at T-Bar? That kind of question can probably be answered, or narrowed down.

But, there are a whole lot of people who dont want those questions answered - many of those in the very Cooper forum community that speculates about the case! 

Some preach and scheme and wager, some teach, and some Do something constructive!   

[fcastle866]

georger: Great points.  I'm new to forum, but not to the case and not to life.  I think we all need speculators and teachers, both add value whether it is to get someone to think differently, or to show them how to do something.  The preachers, schemers and wagerers we don't need.  I certainly have enjoyed reading all the different theories on here.  I've found it all very educating.  I look forward to hearing more.

[Parrotheadvol]

Well, this is off topic, but I guess there is always hope. Looks like the decades old Golden State Killer case has been solved. Sounds like a 72 year old former police officer has been arrested. Wow. Just watched the press conference on Fox News.