Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1915229 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4605 on: March 18, 2018, 12:44:59 AM »
The training mission was a routine run and not that complicated..the flew 091 degree's east for 73 miles from Hens and chicken shoals, then turned 346 degree's north for 73 miles and then 241 degree's southwest for 120 miles back to NAS (Naval Air Station) I believe it was the last leg where everything went wrong..I'm surprised nobody noticed they flew a triangle in the Bermuda Triangle...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 12:54:38 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4606 on: March 18, 2018, 11:48:54 AM »
Quote
One pilot flying to Miami from Puerto Rico or BVI, I think, says he entered some kind of portal and lost about a hour of flight time.

This is a well documented case that has no answer..the pilot (Bruce Gernon) was flying from Andros Island in the Bahama's to Palm Bch.. he said he went through a magnetic fog that disrupted everything on board. Miami lost him on the radar as well. he came out of the fog and was over Miami. the last hundred miles were flown in 3 minutes. this happened December 4, 1970 and the aircraft was an A- 36 Bonanza.

Typical flight from Andros Island Town Airport to West Palm Beach
                                                 
                                         Actual
                       Flight distance 210 miles:      75 minutes
                       Total Flight distance 250 miles:     47 minutes  4 Dec 1970
  ( This distance includes additional miles to avoid Thunderstorms
     near Bimini and Miami )             
                                       ___________
                                    28 minutes.  Delta Time

Charles Lindbergh had a similar experience while flying from Cuba to St. Louis. while over the Florida straights very close to where Gernon was, Lindbergh had the samething happen with a magnetic fog..it took 40 years for Lindbergh to speak about this in his last book...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 12:21:38 PM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4607 on: March 18, 2018, 01:11:36 PM »
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Quote
One pilot flying to Miami from Puerto Rico or BVI, I think, says he entered some kind of portal and lost about a hour of flight time.

This is a well documented case that has no answer..the pilot (Bruce Gernon) was flying from Andros Island in the Bahama's to Palm Bch.. he said he went through a magnetic fog that disrupted everything on board. Miami lost him on the radar as well. he came out of the fog and was over Miami. the last hundred miles were flown in 3 minutes. this happened December 4, 1970 and the aircraft was an A- 36 Bonanza.

Typical flight from Andros Island Town Airport to West Palm Beach
                                                 
                                         Actual
                       Flight distance 210 miles:      75 minutes
                       Total Flight distance 250 miles:     47 minutes  4 Dec 1970
  ( This distance includes additional miles to avoid Thunderstorms
     near Bimini and Miami )             
                                       ___________
                                    28 minutes.  Delta Time

Charles Lindbergh had a similar experience while flying from Cuba to St. Louis. while over the Florida straights very close to where Gernon was, Lindbergh had the samething happen with a magnetic fog..it took 40 years for Lindbergh to speak about this in his last book...

As a confirmed and acknowledged pessimistic optimist, I wouldn't take Gernon's tale at face value.

The disappearance from Miami's radar could be due to the thunderstorm activity in the area.

Fog only forms close to the ground when the relative humidity is very near 100 percent (99+ percent or so).  Fog also requires very calm surface conditions, which are not likely in thunderstorm areas.  I have never heard of a "magnetic fog", except maybe in a science fiction setting.

What is the name of Lindbergh's book in which he writes about his experience?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4608 on: March 18, 2018, 01:39:37 PM »
Bruce Gernon claims it's in his last book published....

eating soup at the moment and will look for anything online about this...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 01:40:15 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4609 on: March 18, 2018, 01:43:27 PM »
In the year following his historic transatlantic flight to Paris, Charles Lindbergh, flying again in the Spirit of St. Louis, lost his way somewhere between Havana, Cuba, and the southwest coast of Florida. It happened in the middle of the night, and it alarmed Lindbergh enough that years later he recalled the incident in his memoir The Autobiography of Values:

Over the Straits of Florida my magnetic compass rotated without stoppingā€¦. I had no notion whether I was flying north, south, east, or west. A few stars directly overhead were dimly visible through haze, but they formed no constellation I could recognize. I started climbing toward the clear sky that had to exist somewhere above me. If I could see Polaris, that northern point of light, I could navigate by it with reasonable accuracy. But haze thickened as my altitude increasedā€¦.

Nothing on my map of Florida corresponded with the earthā€™s features I had seenā€¦where could I be? I unfolded my hydrographic chart [a topographic map of water with coastlines, reefs, wrecks and other structures]ā€¦. I had flown at almost a right angle to my proper heading and itā€¦put me close to three hundred miles off route!




« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 01:45:45 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4610 on: March 18, 2018, 01:54:46 PM »
Lindbergh never spoke about this until he wrote the book which was published in 1978, four years after his death..
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4611 on: March 18, 2018, 01:56:06 PM »
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In the year following his historic transatlantic flight to Paris, Charles Lindbergh, flying again in the Spirit of St. Louis, lost his way somewhere between Havana, Cuba, and the southwest coast of Florida. It happened in the middle of the night, and it alarmed Lindbergh enough that years later he recalled the incident in his memoir The Autobiography of Values:

Over the Straits of Florida my magnetic compass rotated without stoppingā€¦. I had no notion whether I was flying north, south, east, or west. A few stars directly overhead were dimly visible through haze, but they formed no constellation I could recognize. I started climbing toward the clear sky that had to exist somewhere above me. If I could see Polaris, that northern point of light, I could navigate by it with reasonable accuracy. But haze thickened as my altitude increasedā€¦.

I have just read some online information by Bruce Gernon and it results in my having more doubts about his story.  I don't know what happened to Lindbergh's compass, if that story is true, but the compass he used in the flight to Paris was not a standard "whiskey compass" (although he may have had one of those also).  His primary compass was a much more sophisticated instrument and gyro stabilized (if I remember correctly).  Keeping in mind that Lindbergh had to use a periscope for forward visibility in the Spirit of St. Louis, I have questions about just how he could view stars that were high in the sky or over the aircraft.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4612 on: March 18, 2018, 02:01:16 PM »
I usually pass on things such as this, but with documented time frames it makes it hard to dispute that something odd happened.


..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4613 on: March 18, 2018, 02:18:44 PM »
see if this helps any...
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4614 on: March 18, 2018, 07:01:24 PM »
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In the year following his historic transatlantic flight to Paris, Charles Lindbergh, flying again in the Spirit of St. Louis, lost his way somewhere between Havana, Cuba, and the southwest coast of Florida. It happened in the middle of the night, and it alarmed Lindbergh enough that years later he recalled the incident in his memoir The Autobiography of Values:

Over the Straits of Florida my magnetic compass rotated without stoppingā€¦. I had no notion whether I was flying north, south, east, or west. A few stars directly overhead were dimly visible through haze, but they formed no constellation I could recognize. I started climbing toward the clear sky that had to exist somewhere above me. If I could see Polaris, that northern point of light, I could navigate by it with reasonable accuracy. But haze thickened as my altitude increasedā€¦.

Nothing on my map of Florida corresponded with the earthā€™s features I had seenā€¦where could I be? I unfolded my hydrographic chart [a topographic map of water with coastlines, reefs, wrecks and other structures]ā€¦. I had flown at almost a right angle to my proper heading and itā€¦put me close to three hundred miles off route!

I'll comment only on the last paragraph here, so see my earlier comments on the rest of the post.

Lindbergh supposedly writes that the flight was at night, that he was using a hydrographic chart for navigation, that he was over the southwestern end of the Florida Keys (this would be the Key West area), that he was looking at stars directly over the Spirit of St. Louis, and that he discovered that he had flown almost 90 degrees off his correct heading and was close to 300 miles off course.

As pointed out earlier, Lindbergh could not see forward except through a periscope and had no view at all directly above the aircraft.

Key West is only about 100 miles from Havana.  The Spirit of St. Louis cruised at slightly more than 100 knots meaning that it should be past Key West in about an hour.  So if Lindbergh thought he was in the Key West area and discovered that he was almost 300 miles off course, all in one hour's time, then the story is baloney.  Three hundred miles east of Key West is well into the Bahamas (or maybe even east of them) and 300 miles west of Key West is in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico and half-way to Mexico itself.

It is inconceivable that Lindbergh would write such as story due to its factual errors about the Spirit of St. Louis. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4615 on: March 18, 2018, 09:58:03 PM »
Lindbergh was a superb pilot but not an experienced navigator.  He had learned basic dead reckoning navigation in the Army using landmarks, compass and drift meter when over water, and acquired much experience flying the mail along a well-marked route between St. Louis and Chicago. He did not know more sophisticated techniques.  Despite this, Lindbergh made landfall in Ireland within three miles of his planned target during his transatlantic flight so he had every expectation of landing on time.  He was never late on his U.S. tour and now he was off to an inauspicious beginning to his Latin American tour.

different website...
On the last leg of the Mexico tour, Lindbergh
took off from Havana at 1:35 on Feb. 13. 1928,
on what was to be a ā€œroutineā€ nonstop, 10 hour
flight to St. Louis. It was a clear night, and
Lindbergh climbed to 4,000 feet. He settled back
to enjoy the flight. Halfway across the Straits of
Florida, he noticed his compass becoming errat
ic. By this time, a haze formed, screening off the
horizon. Lindbergh made the following entry in
his flight log book:
ā€œBoth compasses malfunctioned over the Florida
Straits at night. The earth inductor needle wobbled
back and forth. The liquid compass card
rotated without stopping. Could recognize no
stars through the heavy haze.ā€

 February 13, 1928,
and Lindbergh was flying on the western edge of
the triangle. With his magnetic compass rotating,
his earth inductor compass needle useless, and
not able to see the stars, Lindbergh could not tell
if he was flying north, south, east or west. He
attempted to climb toward a clear sky, but the
haze thickened as he increased his altitude. He
pondered a thought. . . ā€œShould I spiral until daybreak,
when I could get a general direction from
the sun? This would prevent flying in the wrong
direction causing the ā€˜Spiritā€™ to be hundreds of
CAL/N-X-211 VOLUME MMV No. 3 PAGE 8
miles off course.ā€ Shortly, the haze thickened
and Lindbergh had to descend to less than 1,000
ft. to keep in contact with the sea. He struggled
for hours through the darkness and haze.
Dawn finally came, but its diffused light did not
reveal the sunā€™s location. But, in the early light,
Lindbergh saw a narrow strip of land with more
water beyond. At first he thought it was the
Florida Keys, but nothing on his map of Florida
corresponded with what he saw below. Further
study of his maps, and the features below, convinced
him that he was flying over the Bahamas.
He couldnā€™t believe that he was some 300 miles
east of his intended course. Improved daylight
finally marked the east and he pointed the nose
of the ā€œSpiritā€ in the direction of Florida.
Lindbergh made this entry in his log book:
ā€œLocated position, at daybreak, over Bahama
Islands, nearly 300 miles off course. Liquid compass
card kept rotating until the ā€œSpirit of St.
Louisā€ reached the Florida coast.ā€
The ā€œSpirit of St. Louisā€ with its large fuel tanks,
allowed Lindbergh to fly through the night. With
any other aircraft, he would have exhausted his
fuel supply, and he would have been lost at sea.
Instead, Lindbergh landed in St. Louis at 4:10
p.m. What was meant to be a routine, 10 hour
flight turned out to be a nightmarish flight taking
15 hours, 35 minutes.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 09:58:23 PM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4616 on: March 18, 2018, 11:47:24 PM »
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Lindbergh was a superb pilot but not an experienced navigator.  He had learned basic dead reckoning navigation in the Army using landmarks, compass and drift meter when over water, and acquired much experience flying the mail along a well-marked route between St. Louis and Chicago. He did not know more sophisticated techniques.  Despite this, Lindbergh made landfall in Ireland within three miles of his planned target during his transatlantic flight so he had every expectation of landing on time.  He was never late on his U.S. tour and now he was off to an inauspicious beginning to his Latin American tour.

different website...
On the last leg of the Mexico tour, Lindbergh
took off from Havana at 1:35 on Feb. 13. 1928,
on what was to be a ā€œroutineā€ nonstop, 10 hour
flight to St. Louis. It was a clear night, and
Lindbergh climbed to 4,000 feet. He settled back
to enjoy the flight. Halfway across the Straits of
Florida, he noticed his compass becoming errat
ic. By this time, a haze formed, screening off the
horizon. Lindbergh made the following entry in
his flight log book:
ā€œBoth compasses malfunctioned over the Florida
Straits at night. The earth inductor needle wobbled
back and forth. The liquid compass card
rotated without stopping. Could recognize no
stars through the heavy haze.ā€

 February 13, 1928,
and Lindbergh was flying on the western edge of
the triangle. With his magnetic compass rotating,
his earth inductor compass needle useless, and
not able to see the stars, Lindbergh could not tell
if he was flying north, south, east or west. He
attempted to climb toward a clear sky, but the
haze thickened as he increased his altitude. He
pondered a thought. . . ā€œShould I spiral until daybreak,
when I could get a general direction from
the sun? This would prevent flying in the wrong
direction causing the ā€˜Spiritā€™ to be hundreds of
CAL/N-X-211 VOLUME MMV No. 3 PAGE 8
miles off course.ā€ Shortly, the haze thickened
and Lindbergh had to descend to less than 1,000
ft. to keep in contact with the sea. He struggled
for hours through the darkness and haze.
Dawn finally came, but its diffused light did not
reveal the sunā€™s location. But, in the early light,
Lindbergh saw a narrow strip of land with more
water beyond. At first he thought it was the
Florida Keys, but nothing on his map of Florida
corresponded with what he saw below. Further
study of his maps, and the features below, convinced
him that he was flying over the Bahamas.
He couldnā€™t believe that he was some 300 miles
east of his intended course. Improved daylight
finally marked the east and he pointed the nose
of the ā€œSpiritā€ in the direction of Florida.
Lindbergh made this entry in his log book:
ā€œLocated position, at daybreak, over Bahama
Islands, nearly 300 miles off course. Liquid compass
card kept rotating until the ā€œSpirit of St.
Louisā€ reached the Florida coast.ā€
The ā€œSpirit of St. Louisā€ with its large fuel tanks,
allowed Lindbergh to fly through the night. With
any other aircraft, he would have exhausted his
fuel supply, and he would have been lost at sea.
Instead, Lindbergh landed in St. Louis at 4:10
p.m. What was meant to be a routine, 10 hour
flight turned out to be a nightmarish flight taking
15 hours, 35 minutes.

First, I disagree with the statement about Lindbergh not being an experienced navigator.  For that day and age, he knew everything that an aircraft pilot/navigator could be expected to know except celestial navigation.  In your first paragraph you mention a Latin American tour, what are you referring to here?

Second, what was he doing taking off from Havana at 1:35 AM?  Had he been to a party before takeoff? ;D  Even at Havana in mid-February, there should be plenty of daylight to determine east by about 6:30 or 7:00 AM even if the sun was still below the horizon.  If Lindbergh was actually over the Bahamas, then there should have been sufficient daylight to determine east by about 5:30 or 6:00 AM Havana time.  So he should have been in daylight conditions within not more than five hours if he was anyway east of his course line.

What website was the source of your information?

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4617 on: March 18, 2018, 11:55:38 PM »
It was some sort of tour...let me post some links once I find them again...give me a couple minutes...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4618 on: March 18, 2018, 11:59:31 PM »
here is one from C.A.L./N-X-211 Collectors Society...PDF file..

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Air & Space Museum Smithsonian

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« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 11:59:48 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4619 on: March 19, 2018, 12:00:40 AM »
Latin American Tour

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Sounds more like he got lost vs losing or gaining any time in his flight that can't be accounted for....
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 12:03:54 AM by Shutter »