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[georger]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

The Willamette and the Lewis are different. What you need to keep in mind here is reverse tidal flow sets up turbulence.  The wave has a strong transverse component perpendicular to the longitudinal component. That's an erosive force. Particles being conveyed are almost in suspension vs being laid down. Then as tidal flow ebbs, normal current surges back to normal or even faster values! That does not bode well for reverse tidal flow conveying a lot of new material to a shore line that stays in place. Reverse tidal flows may be corrosive!

As tidal effects ebb, damned up normal flow then moves even faster than normal!

Nothing is free in Nature.       

Hydrologists Bradley and Snavely didn't even mention reverse tidal flow in the Palmer Report as an active factor in the Tina Bar or Columbia flow narrative. I wonder why?

[FLYJACK]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

The Willamette and the Lewis are different. What you need to keep in mind here is reverse tidal flow sets up turbulence.  The wave has a strong transverse component perpendicular to the longitudinal component. That's an erosive force. Particles being conveyed are almost in suspension vs being laid down. Then as tidal flow ebbs, normal current surges back to normal or even faster values! That does not bode well for reverse tidal flow conveying a lot of new material to a shore line that stays in place. Reverse tidal flows may be corrosive!

As tidal effects ebb, damned up normal flow then moves even faster than normal!

Nothing is free in Nature.     

True..

My point was that a Willamette flow reversal at that speed goes against "common sense". Not that is represents Lewis to TBAR. It clearly does not.

In the EU vid, in some shots while the strapping lads are on the beach the river flow behind them at surface in some spots is definitely upstream. That doesn't prove anything except perhaps a little "irony".

[georger]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

The Willamette and the Lewis are different. What you need to keep in mind here is reverse tidal flow sets up turbulence.  The wave has a strong transverse component perpendicular to the longitudinal component. That's an erosive force. Particles being conveyed are almost in suspension vs being laid down. Then as tidal flow ebbs, normal current surges back to normal or even faster values! That does not bode well for reverse tidal flow conveying a lot of new material to a shore line that stays in place. Reverse tidal flows may be corrosive!

As tidal effects ebb, damned up normal flow then moves even faster than normal!

Nothing is free in Nature.     

True..

My point was that a Willamette flow reversal at that speed goes against "common sense". Not that is represents Lewis to TBAR. It clearly does not.

In the EU vid, in some shots while the strapping lads are on the beach the river flow behind them at surface in some spots is definitely upstream. That doesn't prove anything except perhaps a little "irony".

Common sense has nothing to do with this, or Nature!

Reverse tidal flow retards natural flow in the Columbia. No doubt about this. That just might help to divert material to Tina Bar from the normal direction of flow, beyond what would normally be the case without reverse tidal pressure.

Low pressure zones like the Caterpillar lagoon could fill up with more material than normal due to these combined pressures, then release on the Fazio property as normal flow resumes. None of us had put that in our equation before! In other words these conflicting pressures could create a flow vector which favors the Fazio property and Tina Bar. I may just call a hydrologist and ask -

There is no question that reverse tidal flow is a part of the natural story at the Columbia. The only issue now is how does it work in the area of Tina Bar ... 

[FLYJACK]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

The Willamette and the Lewis are different. What you need to keep in mind here is reverse tidal flow sets up turbulence.  The wave has a strong transverse component perpendicular to the longitudinal component. That's an erosive force. Particles being conveyed are almost in suspension vs being laid down. Then as tidal flow ebbs, normal current surges back to normal or even faster values! That does not bode well for reverse tidal flow conveying a lot of new material to a shore line that stays in place. Reverse tidal flows may be corrosive!

As tidal effects ebb, damned up normal flow then moves even faster than normal!

Nothing is free in Nature.     

True..

My point was that a Willamette flow reversal at that speed goes against "common sense". Not that is represents Lewis to TBAR. It clearly does not.

In the EU vid, in some shots while the strapping lads are on the beach the river flow behind them at surface in some spots is definitely upstream. That doesn't prove anything except perhaps a little "irony".

Common sense has nothing to do with this, or Nature!

Reverse tidal flow retards natural flow in the Columbia. No doubt about this. That just might help to divert material to Tina Bar from the normal direction of flow, beyond what would normally be the case without reverse tidal pressure.

Low pressure zones like the Caterpillar lagoon could fill up with more material than normal due to these combined pressures, then release on the Fazio property as normal flow resumes. None of us had put that in our equation before! In other words these conflicting pressures could create a flow vector which favors the Fazio property and Tina Bar. I may just call a hydrologist and ask -

There is no question that reverse tidal flow is a part of the natural story at the Columbia. The only issue now is how does it work in the area of Tina Bar ... 

IMO, "common sense" keeps people from intellectual inquiry..

I still believe that the Sauvie Island dredge remediation is in play.. with or without some flow reversal.

[georger]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

The Willamette and the Lewis are different. What you need to keep in mind here is reverse tidal flow sets up turbulence.  The wave has a strong transverse component perpendicular to the longitudinal component. That's an erosive force. Particles being conveyed are almost in suspension vs being laid down. Then as tidal flow ebbs, normal current surges back to normal or even faster values! That does not bode well for reverse tidal flow conveying a lot of new material to a shore line that stays in place. Reverse tidal flows may be corrosive!

As tidal effects ebb, damned up normal flow then moves even faster than normal!

Nothing is free in Nature.     

True..

My point was that a Willamette flow reversal at that speed goes against "common sense". Not that is represents Lewis to TBAR. It clearly does not.

In the EU vid, in some shots while the strapping lads are on the beach the river flow behind them at surface in some spots is definitely upstream. That doesn't prove anything except perhaps a little "irony".

Common sense has nothing to do with this, or Nature!

Reverse tidal flow retards natural flow in the Columbia. No doubt about this. That just might help to divert material to Tina Bar from the normal direction of flow, beyond what would normally be the case without reverse tidal pressure.

Low pressure zones like the Caterpillar lagoon could fill up with more material than normal due to these combined pressures, then release on the Fazio property as normal flow resumes. None of us had put that in our equation before! In other words these conflicting pressures could create a flow vector which favors the Fazio property and Tina Bar. I may just call a hydrologist and ask -

There is no question that reverse tidal flow is a part of the natural story at the Columbia. The only issue now is how does it work in the area of Tina Bar ... 

IMO, "common sense" keeps people from intellectual inquiry..

I still believe that the Sauvie Island dredge remediation is in play.. with or without some flow reversal.

The question I have is 'how in hell does anything get in the Columbia in the first place' if he dropped up near Ariel/Amboy/Woodland etc. I can get something to Tina Bar quite easily from several different sources, by natural means or by dredging. What I cant get is money to the Columbia!

[FLYJACK]

In the Expedition Unknown Cooper episode at TBAR the surface flow/tide is travelling upstream in some shots. I ran it through some smart vid software and it does it right behind you guys..

Now, that is not PROOF money was moved from the Lewis to TBAR or beyond..  these things are very complex. It can flow opposite ways in different places. Surface vs depth.

I found research that measured the Willamette flowing in reverse at .68 mph for some distance. That wasn't the max just a sample measurement at reverse flow.

The Willamette and the Lewis are different. What you need to keep in mind here is reverse tidal flow sets up turbulence.  The wave has a strong transverse component perpendicular to the longitudinal component. That's an erosive force. Particles being conveyed are almost in suspension vs being laid down. Then as tidal flow ebbs, normal current surges back to normal or even faster values! That does not bode well for reverse tidal flow conveying a lot of new material to a shore line that stays in place. Reverse tidal flows may be corrosive!

As tidal effects ebb, damned up normal flow then moves even faster than normal!

Nothing is free in Nature.     

True..

My point was that a Willamette flow reversal at that speed goes against "common sense". Not that is represents Lewis to TBAR. It clearly does not.

In the EU vid, in some shots while the strapping lads are on the beach the river flow behind them at surface in some spots is definitely upstream. That doesn't prove anything except perhaps a little "irony".

Common sense has nothing to do with this, or Nature!

Reverse tidal flow retards natural flow in the Columbia. No doubt about this. That just might help to divert material to Tina Bar from the normal direction of flow, beyond what would normally be the case without reverse tidal pressure.

Low pressure zones like the Caterpillar lagoon could fill up with more material than normal due to these combined pressures, then release on the Fazio property as normal flow resumes. None of us had put that in our equation before! In other words these conflicting pressures could create a flow vector which favors the Fazio property and Tina Bar. I may just call a hydrologist and ask -

There is no question that reverse tidal flow is a part of the natural story at the Columbia. The only issue now is how does it work in the area of Tina Bar ... 

IMO, "common sense" keeps people from intellectual inquiry..

I still believe that the Sauvie Island dredge remediation is in play.. with or without some flow reversal.

The question I have is 'how in hell does anything get in the Columbia in the first place' if he dropped up near Ariel/Amboy/Woodland etc. I can get something to Tina Bar quite easily from several different sources, by natural means or by dredging. What I cant get is money to the Columbia!

You don't think money bundles in a bag can make down the Lewis with consideration of seasonal flow and be consistent with the find..

[Kermit]

Tidal affects not previously mentioned by FlyJack: (1) reverse flows stagnant, weaker, and less velocity than normal flow rates, (2) dead zones of no flow, (3) post tidal ebb stage: normal current surges as released, normal flow rates increase and are stronger for a period as reverse tidal effects subside! (4) reverse flow propagates as both longitudinal and transverse waves (perpendicular to longitudinal wave flow) creating turbulence, cavitation, and other obstructive forces - particles suspended in a reverse flow are know to circle in eddies and go nowhere ...   

TIDAL EFFECT ON THE COLUMBIA & WILLAMETTE RIVERS

In each 24-hour period the Oregon and Washington coasts experience two high tides and two low tides. These tides affect the Columbia upriver as far as Camas, but not much beyond, and upriver on the Willamette to Oregon City. Mean ranges of tides in the Columbia range from 6.7 feet at Astoria, to 1.3 feet at Vancouver and 1.8 feet at Portland.

Traveling upstream from the mouth of the Columbia, the effect of the tide takes approximately six hours to reach the mouth of the Willamette River. As this tidal effect works its way upstream, it slows or sometimes reverses the downriver current of the Columbia. When the tide changes to the ebb stage at Astoria, the holding action of the high tide against the river current is released and the river current then accelerates to discharge water held back by the tide. The same affect occurs to varying extent at all locations affected by tidal action

Tidal effects should be taken into consideration when anchoring, particularly in the lower Columbia where tidal rise and fall is more noticeable. To save time and fuel, boaters can use the forces of the tide to their advantage by timing the departure of a down river trip with the start of the ebb stage, and an upriver trip with the tidal release stage when unobstructed current resumes and is swifter.

Inexpensive tide books are available at most marine and fishing supply stores. These books list the predicted times of high and low tides for the calendar year. The books also give the times of high and low tides at various locations along the Columbia.



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Uh, Georger, I not trying to be a smarty-pants, that is already well known, but you state above that the mean tide at Vancouver is 1.3 feet, while it is 1.8 feet at Portland.

The river gage for Vancouver is located on the north side of the Columbia River just a few hundred feet east of the Interstate 5 bridge.  I have never found a reference to a gage for Portland.

Since Vancouver is on the north side of the river, and Portland is directly across the river on the south side, what causes the different tide levels?

Robert,
I guess this is why I often see things completely different from out of state posters. You see Portland from a different perspective than us locals. Technically the city limits of Portland is as you mentioned
Being directly across the Columbia river from Vancouver Washington. However Portland to most locals is not actually on the Columbia river but is on the Willamette river. As I mentioned to you before, the Willamette river separate Portland into East and West. I agree with you that the reading on either side of Columbia river should be the same. I think they are referring to the reading of Tidal affects on the Willamette as it flows through Portland and dividing it into,West side and East side. Downtown Portland is quite a few miles,South of  the Columbia River......perhaps 7 or 8 miles ? The area across from Vancouver, Washington was known as Hayden Island and home to Jantzen Beach amusement park. BTW. There can’t be any Tidal affects above Oregon City because of Willamette Falls.

[Kermit]

and one more complication, I think.    The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?

Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

Actually, that isnt a stupid question at all!

The answer is: yes and no, both. Look at Tina Bar in USGS photos over the years. The answer is: without replenishment T-Bar wouldn't exist at all. The dominant natural force at work on T_Bar is erosion due to south-to-north river flow and seasonal erosion. This means that on average, reverse tidal flow has supplied no material to Tina Bar over the years that stayed, and that would include Cooper money and other debris.

Things arrive on Tina Bar from known current vectors from the south, with normal river flow pressure. That low pressure lagoon between Caterpillar Island and the Fazio property helps direct material on to the Fazio property.   

Once again I’m not looking at a map here but simply going by my recollections and I hope you correct me if I’m all wet. The Columbia River is a huge river that flows from Canada on its voyage into the Pacific. I think it’s directionally inaccurate to refer to its flow past Tina Bar as South to North. The strong Northernly turn of the Columbia River happens downstream from Tina Bar if I recall correctly. It then flows northernly until the Longview vacinity as it then head westerly toward the Pacific.

[377]

Thank goodness for paper money, old school air navigation and round canopies. Had Cooper been flying a square, carried a GPS and demanded BITCOIN he could have exited and landed with precision and we'd have been deprived of this compelling T-Bar money mystery.

My wife gave me a Gen 3 Apple Watch for my 68th birthday. It has mapping GPS and a voice and data cell phone built in. With such a device Cooper could have picked a good exit point, landed by a road and called LYFT or UBER for his getaway.

I am glad I have lived long enough to see these miracles of silicon and nylon. They sure make my weekends nicer.

377

[Bruce A. Smith]

Your wife is such a sweetie!

[Robert99]

and one more complication, I think.    The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?

Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

Actually, that isnt a stupid question at all!

The answer is: yes and no, both. Look at Tina Bar in USGS photos over the years. The answer is: without replenishment T-Bar wouldn't exist at all. The dominant natural force at work on T_Bar is erosion due to south-to-north river flow and seasonal erosion. This means that on average, reverse tidal flow has supplied no material to Tina Bar over the years that stayed, and that would include Cooper money and other debris.

Things arrive on Tina Bar from known current vectors from the south, with normal river flow pressure. That low pressure lagoon between Caterpillar Island and the Fazio property helps direct material on to the Fazio property.   

Once again I’m not looking at a map here but simply going by my recollections and I hope you correct me if I’m all wet. The Columbia River is a huge river that flows from Canada on its voyage into the Pacific. I think it’s directionally inaccurate to refer to its flow past Tina Bar as South to North. The strong Northernly turn of the Columbia River happens downstream from Tina Bar if I recall correctly. It then flows northernly until the Longview vacinity as it then head westerly toward the Pacific.

I measured that direction of flow several years ago on a map.  The river flow is actually about two degrees East of True North at Tina Bar.  This is important because if the airliner flew directly from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would have been flying straight down the Columbia River for about 10 MILES and would have passed about a thousand FEET west of Tina Bar.  Essentially, the airliner would have been flying almost directly over the west shore of the Columbia River when it passed Tina Bar.

[Kermit]

and one more complication, I think.    The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?

Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

Actually, that isnt a stupid question at all!

The answer is: yes and no, both. Look at Tina Bar in USGS photos over the years. The answer is: without replenishment T-Bar wouldn't exist at all. The dominant natural force at work on T_Bar is erosion due to south-to-north river flow and seasonal erosion. This means that on average, reverse tidal flow has supplied no material to Tina Bar over the years that stayed, and that would include Cooper money and other debris.

Things arrive on Tina Bar from known current vectors from the south, with normal river flow pressure. That low pressure lagoon between Caterpillar Island and the Fazio property helps direct material on to the Fazio property.   

Once again I’m not looking at a map here but simply going by my recollections and I hope you correct me if I’m all wet. The Columbia River is a huge river that flows from Canada on its voyage into the Pacific. I think it’s directionally inaccurate to refer to its flow past Tina Bar as South to North. The strong Northernly turn of the Columbia River happens downstream from Tina Bar if I recall correctly. It then flows northernly until the Longview vacinity as it then head westerly toward the Pacific.

I measured that direction of flow several years ago on a map.  The river flow is actually about two degrees East of True North at Tina Bar.  This is important because if the airliner flew directly from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would have been flying straight down the Columbia River for about 10 MILES and would have passed about a thousand FEET west of Tina Bar.  Essentially, the airliner would have been flying almost directly over the west shore of the Columbia River when it passed Tina Bar.

Ive always believed the Columbia flowed Northwesterly down the Columbia,Gorge. Do you have a map showing the Columbia’s direction as it flows from the Interstate bridge past Tina Bar. I am aware that downstream from Tina Bar it takes a right angle and basically heads north towards Longview area. Often times the river flows right next to I 5.
I’m aware that you believe that lt 305 left V23 traveling basically traveling over the Columbia. You may be correct but many others disagree.

[Robert99]

and one more complication, I think.    The money must be buried fast so as not to be seen. Otherwise the find date might have been 1974? 1972? 1971?  Could the tides have supplied enough material to convey and bury the money on the same day?

Please remember that I am from the east coast and have never been to Oregon, Washington, or for that matter; Australia (it does look lovely this time of the year though). With that being stated, I'm asking the utterly stupid question of "was Tena Bar even in existence in November 1971?"

Actually, that isnt a stupid question at all!

The answer is: yes and no, both. Look at Tina Bar in USGS photos over the years. The answer is: without replenishment T-Bar wouldn't exist at all. The dominant natural force at work on T_Bar is erosion due to south-to-north river flow and seasonal erosion. This means that on average, reverse tidal flow has supplied no material to Tina Bar over the years that stayed, and that would include Cooper money and other debris.

Things arrive on Tina Bar from known current vectors from the south, with normal river flow pressure. That low pressure lagoon between Caterpillar Island and the Fazio property helps direct material on to the Fazio property.   

Once again I’m not looking at a map here but simply going by my recollections and I hope you correct me if I’m all wet. The Columbia River is a huge river that flows from Canada on its voyage into the Pacific. I think it’s directionally inaccurate to refer to its flow past Tina Bar as South to North. The strong Northernly turn of the Columbia River happens downstream from Tina Bar if I recall correctly. It then flows northernly until the Longview vacinity as it then head westerly toward the Pacific.

I measured that direction of flow several years ago on a map.  The river flow is actually about two degrees East of True North at Tina Bar.  This is important because if the airliner flew directly from the Malay Intersection to the Canby Intersection, it would have been flying straight down the Columbia River for about 10 MILES and would have passed about a thousand FEET west of Tina Bar.  Essentially, the airliner would have been flying almost directly over the west shore of the Columbia River when it passed Tina Bar.

Ive always believed the Columbia flowed Northwesterly down the Columbia,Gorge. Do you have a map showing the Columbia’s direction as it flows from the Interstate bridge past Tina Bar. I am aware that downstream from Tina Bar it takes a right angle and basically heads north towards Longview area. Often times the river flows right next to I 5.
I’m aware that you believe that lt 305 left V23 traveling basically traveling over the Columbia. You may be correct but many others disagree.

You can see what I am talking about on the so-called "FBI map" which is undoubtedly somewhere on this site.  Otherwise, get yourself a US Topographical chart for the Tina Bar area.

[Kermit]

Robert,
It’s no big deal with me one way or the other so I’m not that interested in it enough to go search for a map. Apparently neither are you ! Therefor I will continue to feel that the Columbia doesn’t flow due North as it flows by Tina Bar. Once it flows downstream from Tina Bar it turns northerly until it gets to Longview area.

[Robert99]

Robert,
It’s no big deal with me one way or the other so I’m not that interested in it enough to go search for a map. Apparently neither are you ! Therefor I will continue to feel that the Columbia doesn’t flow due North as it flows by Tina Bar. Once it flows downstream from Tina Bar it turns northerly until it gets to Longview area.

Kermit,

The above post is one for the ages!  Get off your lazy ass and look at the "FBI map" on this site!  Do you really expect to be hand fed everything?  Are we suppose to change you diaper also?

You are free to feel that the Columbia River runs East at Tina Bar if you wish.  But anyone who is actually interested in which way it flows will do as I have stated previously and find that it flows at 2 degrees East of North at Tina Bar.  The river flow is already going North at Tina Bar and starts turning West (not northerly) several miles downstream from Tina Bar.

For your information, several years ago, Georger and I spent most of one year looking at ever map and photograph that we could find of the Tina Bar area.  That experience formed part of the basis for everything he and I have posted about Tina Bar since then.