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[andrade1812]

FLYJACK; Either find a hydrologist and ask, or perform an experiment to see how far a package moves upstream under ideal tidal conditions.

[Shutter]

FLYJACK; Either find a hydrologist and ask, or perform an experiment to see how far a package moves upstream under ideal tidal conditions.

agreed, and the test should be done AWAY from joining rivers, or forks  where reversal is known to occur..

[Shutter]

I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make sense that even a bundle that would flow freely under water could only gain backwards motion and not be affected by the normal flow of the river?

I wonder if a swimmer goes missing if they focus upstream with the search?

[FLYJACK]

I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make sense that even a bundle that would flow freely under water could only gain backwards motion and not be affected by the normal flow of the river?

I wonder if a swimmer goes missing if they focus upstream with the search?

This comment demonstrates that you do not understand tidal induced flow reversal.. you are thinking temp flow reversal at tributary entry.. completely different. In tidal flood, essentially the entire river reverses. (you can get points that go opposite ways at different levels or sides)

We have anecdotal evidence from two forum members of reversal to TBAR and I have posted two sources that acknowledge tidal reversal flow to Portland including Army Corps to RM90. The evidence is there that tidal reverse flow goes beyond TBAR under the right conditions. High tide and low river discharge/flow.

Now, can it carry a money bag under the conditions that were present 40 years ago? That is a tough one to prove today, my research shows that even the very best modelling is a best guess. This is very very complicated stuff.

I have also found a phenomena called the Coriolis force, due to the rotation of the earth the water flow is pushed to the East for a S/N flowing river in Northern Hemisphere and debris gets deposited on the East side..

So IF, a tidal flow reversal CAN take a "money bag" 10 miles up river from the Lewis then the normalization and Coriolis force would push debris to TBAR (Eastside).

The question is now not whether a flow reversal can exist but whether it can move a "money bag" to TBAR under the conditions 40 years ago.

[Shutter]

I don't care what current you wish to use. I don't think it's possible..

[Shutter]

you seem to be the hydrologist here...please tell me when reverse flow occurs at mid point of the area between the Lewis river and Hayden island? you are the one who understands this, no?

[Kermit]

Hey wait a second…. Didn’t I say this a few months back in regards to the money floating from the mouth of the Lewis to Tina bar??

FLYJACK you can come up with every statistical measure the Army Corp has to offer or anybody else for that matter i.e.: Graph, Pie Chart, Endless data, River Flows, Power Points etc.….  But the fact of the matter is something simply needs to be dropped at the mouth of the Lewis (buoy??) on a reverse flow and proven to have the ability to float to Tina Bar and I cannot find such data.  I have stated in the past it’s my belief this can happen.  I base this on my personal experience in the river.  Now until I actually conduct the test with my boat and a set of buoys I really don’t have a leg to stand on.  We can talk all day long about the possibility but until a hard test is run I suspect it would be difficult to change anyone’s mind on this forum.

Side note as Shutter has mentioned even with the buoy making the journey you still have to prove the bag of money could do the same.  I suggest the buoy as it’s the easiest test to run.  If successful proceed to step 2 if not well there we have it.

The tide reverses well East of Vancouver I know that for fact!

I had great intentions of running such test this past summer but “work” seemed to have gotten in the way.

So glad to see your return to this forum. I think you and I are “ Birds of a feather “ type. We state facts from actually experiencing them with our own eyes. I know nothing about the scientific principles of Tidal Reversal. However when my beach blanket is getting wet because the river has risen, I guess I’m 100% certain the river wasn’t defying gravity and levitating. Also I recall your invitation to do the experiment and deposit ping pong balls into the Lewis River buoy and see what happens. I guess it would have to be done when we not only have a correct Tidal affect but also a “ no wind type day “. On the Columbia river I think it may be a “ Houston, We have a problem “ situation. BTW Most of my Columbia river fishing was done at Buoy 10, Sauviie Island area, Sandy river area or on the Willamette area by Willamette Falls. Also I’m still open to the boat ride ! Lol

[Kermit]

... It puts his LZ near the west end of Lake Merwin. That puts a water path to TBAR in play. If he landed in Lake Merwin and sat on the bottom in a deep cold water environment for eight years before some money came loose and floated down the Lewis River then via tide up stream 15 km to TBAR..

Ah, the Propeller Theory strikes again!

When I was at T-Bar in 2011, I was very impressed with the speed of the river current. 4-5 knots I should say. It really pulled me along when I went swimmin' (it was 105 degrees!)

Thus, it is hard for me to believe in a tidal effect 60 miles inland from the ocean, despite what Al Fazio says about tides at T-Bar. As for pushin' a  bunch of money upstream for six miles, well as we say in Flatbush: forgetaboutit!

Bruce ,
You are certainly not being accurate in your Post. I can assure you that the Tidal affect does indeed affect not only as far upstream of Tina Bar but also up the Willamette River as far as Willamette Falls in Oregon City area. I. Had a beach blanket stretch out close to shoreline as I went off skiing. Some friends had to move my stuff as Tidal affects were causing river to rise. The Willamette flows into the Columbia a few miles from Tina Bar. Also I’m pretty sure Tina Bar is more 60 miles inland from ocean and the Lewis river is more than 6 miles downstream from Tina Bar. I doubt the river would be 4 or 5 knots in that area. Of course you’re joking about the 105 degrees but someone might actually believe you.
However I seriously doubt that a sack of Money could possibly travel that many miles upstream ! So I guess I’m with you on that one ! I consider this whole theory as preposterous but that just me I guess.

Kermit, Im just trying to nail down what people are saying or not saying.

So I take it you do not think money could travel from the Lewis to Tina Bar, tide reversal notwithstanding?

Have you ever seen anything transported between the Lewis River and Tina Bar, hydrologically? A boat, a log, a b
each ball .... anything?

I used the phrase “ Preposterous “. I guess I will correct it now to I consider the possibility to be highly unlikely. No I have never witnessed ANY objects transported from the Lewis River hydrologically. Perhaps Trapper John has ? you must remember that I go back to 1946 when I was moved to Oregon as a 5 year old.

[Robert99]

I've been nothing but respectful to you with my comments. you brought the censorship card into play accusing me of it with the dismissal claim. then you labeled me in "denial" for not agreeing with this theory. I've spent time looking into this offline and still do not agree with the concept. to date, it appears to occur around other rivers joining in, and weakens the more as it travels. it has to have a reason vs just happening out of nowhere. tides only play a part of this.

I've told you more than once to contact the Corps, and you have never said a thing other than attacking me for disagreeing. we have went 3-4 pages on this.

River flow is actually three-dimensional because the velocity depends not only on downstream distance but also on depth and transverse position. This is so because friction against the bottom and banks causes the velocity to decrease from a maximum at the surface near the middle of the stream to zero along the bottom and sides.

Because we wish to emphasize here the manner by which the flow varies in the downstream direction, we will neglect cross-stream velocity components as well as cross-stream variations of the downstream component, by considering the speed u as the water velocity averaged across the stream and a function of only the downstream distance x and time t. Because the flow in a river almost never reverses, the fact that we take x directed downstream implies that u is a positive quantity

Shutter's first quote above is 100 per cent correct.  And it applies not only to river, or duct flow, but to aerodynamics boundary layer theory for airflow on such things as wings.  That is, on the surface of the wing or panel, the relative movement between air and the wing or panel is zero.  But at a very, very short distance from the wing or panel (think in thousands of an inch), the relative movement between the wing or panel can start being analyzed analytically.  We can thank Dr. Ludwig Prandtl and his graduate students at the University of Gottingen, Germany for putting aerodynamics (and fluid flow generally) on a sound analytical basis in the early 1900s.

On the flow reversal matter.  I remember seeing pictures years ago about flow reversal on, I think it was, a canal in Northern France that connected to the ocean.  When the stars, or whatever, aligned themselves properly, there would be a big-time reverse flow on this canal with the water going up the canal being several feet higher than the canal water surface.  But the French were equal to the occasion and got out their surfboards and had some fun.  I think I can also say that the water at the bottom of the canal was still, at least generally speaking, headed to the ocean.

[georger]

... It puts his LZ near the west end of Lake Merwin. That puts a water path to TBAR in play. If he landed in Lake Merwin and sat on the bottom in a deep cold water environment for eight years before some money came loose and floated down the Lewis River then via tide up stream 15 km to TBAR..

Ah, the Propeller Theory strikes again!

When I was at T-Bar in 2011, I was very impressed with the speed of the river current. 4-5 knots I should say. It really pulled me along when I went swimmin' (it was 105 degrees!)

Thus, it is hard for me to believe in a tidal effect 60 miles inland from the ocean, despite what Al Fazio says about tides at T-Bar. As for pushin' a  bunch of money upstream for six miles, well as we say in Flatbush: forgetaboutit!

Bruce ,
You are certainly not being accurate in your Post. I can assure you that the Tidal affect does indeed affect not only as far upstream of Tina Bar but also up the Willamette River as far as Willamette Falls in Oregon City area. I. Had a beach blanket stretch out close to shoreline as I went off skiing. Some friends had to move my stuff as Tidal affects were causing river to rise. The Willamette flows into the Columbia a few miles from Tina Bar. Also I’m pretty sure Tina Bar is more 60 miles inland from ocean and the Lewis river is more than 6 miles downstream from Tina Bar. I doubt the river would be 4 or 5 knots in that area. Of course you’re joking about the 105 degrees but someone might actually believe you.
However I seriously doubt that a sack of Money could possibly travel that many miles upstream ! So I guess I’m with you on that one ! I consider this whole theory as preposterous but that just me I guess.

Kermit, Im just trying to nail down what people are saying or not saying.

So I take it you do not think money could travel from the Lewis to Tina Bar, tide reversal notwithstanding?

Have you ever seen anything transported between the Lewis River and Tina Bar, hydrologically? A boat, a log, a b
each ball .... anything?

I used the phrase “ Preposterous “. I guess I will correct it now to I consider the possibility to be highly unlikely. No I have never witnessed ANY objects transported from the Lewis River hydrologically. Perhaps Trapper John has ? you must remember that I go back to 1946 when I was moved to Oregon as a 5 year old.

Great reality check and report - the same for Trapper John!   

[Shutter]

I'm always willing to listen to theories, however, going several days with them gets a little concerning. I've given advice on to who to contact. I agreed to any type of testing, but it changes from the bag, to bundles, or rivers etc.

proof of this concept needs to be verified between, or in the middle of the two points, or locations the money moved from. (Lewis to Tina) at one point a buoy will not work, and then we read about debris piling up on T-bar? how long does one have to wait for the reverse flow at this location?

we are to believe that reverse flow, among other currents can carry (undecided) debris and weight miles upstream due to many different tides, currents flows etc....and can occur up to and beyond a 10 mile range anywhere with the lower Columbia river. basically, the reverse flow can exist in full from the Lewis river exit down to the T-bar area. at the same time?

I do realize currents can play many tricks, but this is one for Houdini IMO.

[Shutter]

Now, since we are to believe that flow reversal can occur over a large stretch of the river. I suggest that if reverse flow is detected at the Lewis river exit, then you should be able to travel 3-5 miles upstream and confirm the same reverse flow, and continue to find it's ending. we have heard a window of 8 hours...plenty of time to drive the distance...my guess would be the flow would not be detected miles upstream...just a hunch..

[FLYJACK]

Now, since we are to believe that flow reversal can occur over a large stretch of the river. I suggest that if reverse flow is detected at the Lewis river exit, then you should be able to travel 3-5 miles upstream and confirm the same reverse flow, and continue to find it's ending. we have heard a window of 8 hours...plenty of time to drive the distance...my guess would be the flow would not be detected miles upstream...just a hunch..

Last time, Army Corps confirmed flow reversal to RM90, others even further. The Lewis River is at RM87. It has varied greatly over since the 70's to to river discharge/flow changes.

We have a flow reversal. We don't don't what it is capable of.

Perhaps at a good flow reversal time Kermit or Trapper can drop a line in with a canvass bag and a little weight near the Lewis R at different depths and spots to see if there is any current. The best ones decades ago were in Aug-Oct.

Army Corps report, I already posted this. Flow Reversal to RM90 at extreme low flow

[Shutter]

Last time...we are all aware of flow reversal.....that doesn't mean this is the answer...

I don't believe it can exist for a stretch of 10-15 miles at once..we know flow reversal happens...

my truck is parked outside...I know that.....

[Shutter]

we know scuba divers go in the river, along with boaters, and swimmers etc..did they move the money...they are there. it's documented?

did a fisherman fishing off the bottom snag the bag dragging it to the T-bar area? we know they fish in the river, but don't know if this can happen?