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[Mack]

Sounds like Blevins is trying to compensate for something. Or a lot of things.  People that brag about their prowess usually don't have any.  It's a form of insecurity and in Blevin's case passive-aggressive behavior.  People that know what they're doing and confident keep it to themselves. 

Open carry just puts all cards on the table.  Would it have been different if it were a nun or your grandma with the open carry? Big brutish looking guys have always used their size to intimidate. Open carry levels the playing field for everyone.

Does Ariel store have any significance to the Cooper investigation other than an annual beer festival for publicity? 

[Shutter]

The above is correct, don't forget he held his own forum hostage trying to get me to meet his demands. both of his posters acted out on that move. 

anyway, I have moved this discussion to the off topic thread if we are to continue the topic...guns don't belong in Cooper discussions....similar to politics. they serve no purpose to the cause. legislation, is a different story though...

[Robert99]

It's not unusual for country folks to have firearms in Cooper country, or anywhere else in WA state.  I'm not sure what the concern is all about. 
Meyer

I'm not talking about quaint customs. I'm talking about the increase in the number of incidences of open carry encounters, generally perpetrated by aggressive looking folks, like bikers. Earlier this summer, I stopped at a red light in Puyallup on the way to Good Sam Hosp. for a therapy session, and next to us was a biker with a Glock-9 on his hip. I freaked out. I was very upset.

I consider open carry a veiled form of assault. People who chose to display lethal power in public when there is no obvious need are causing a provocation. They need to take responsibility for how their actions affect others, and the guys I see packin' heat don't seem to feel the need to do so. That in turn tells me that they may not have the emotional and internal restraints necessary to keep them from shooting me in the back if they feel they need to do so.

Remember, "Everyone hates you," as I am repeatedly told. I agree, I feel it and I see it. Lots of people don't like me, and some very strongly. Add into that the obvious jealousies from RMB and his years of campaigning to destroy my reputation and presence in Cooper World. So I do move in this world with an elevated degree of vigilance. Not to do so would be imprudent, in my view.

So, to blow off my concerns and say that bringing guns to a DB Cooper celebration is just a bunch of country boys being country boys is both naieve and offensive.

Bruce,

Here in my part of the country, if you are going to be spending time in the brush and away from civilization, I would recommend that you not only carry an automatic sidearm but also a high-powered rifle.

I have seen a large number of bikers packing heat and never heard of anyone around here having a problem with them or the fact that they were armed.  And a lot of other people in my neighborhood carry concealed weapons.

But if you are going to carry a weapon, make sure that you know how to use it and also when you can legally use it.

At the Gabby Giffords shooting a few years ago, after the initial barrage of 32 or 33 rounds were fired by the culprit (with 6 people killed and 13 more wounded), the fellow who managed to get the gun away from the culprit was almost shot himself by a second gunman.

It seems that an individual had felt the need to carry a concealed weapon when he went to the drug store that morning in the same shopping center.  Hearing the gunshots, he ran outside and saw a man holding a weapon (in this case the hero) and, by his own admission, came within a second or two of shooting him.  It turned out that the drug store cowboy didn't have a single second of training on WHEN to shoot. 

[georger]

Does Ariel store have any significance to the Cooper investigation other than an annual beer festival for publicity?

No. The current Ariel Store was never involved in the Cooper search or the case. In fact Im told the current building isn't the original building that was there in 71-72. The current operation is just a place to hold a party for any reason.

The original store was one of the places people went to rest and recreate and discuss ... during the 1972 search for Cooper, in the same area.

The only current connection would be recent in nature: * a place for RMB to peddle his book, its in the area of the recent Amboy chute discovery, and Dona's Cooper parties were there over the years.

As far as it having value as a museum what actual 'Cooper artifacts' are there from the old days? For example, do they have an original Zerox copy of the original FBI search map there? I doubt it but I dont know... I have never heard anyone claim the store houses valuable Cooper artifacts from the past ? There would be a few items there from people that attended past Cooper parties like at any bar. Some poetry my grandmother gave Dona is there - somewhere - but I doubt that has any value to Woodruff or Blevins!

I am told by locals that the bulk of what is there is memorabilia of a personal nature, from people who attended past Cooper parties, but virtually nothing directly related to the Cooper case or the Cooper search in 1972 ... but I have no firsthand knowledge about this. Maybe Meyer or Bruce can enlighten us about this?



 

[Shutter]

It appears the Tavern was just a place to discuss Cooper, just as any other place. it is in the flight path, and they did set up base close to it. they basically celebrate Cooper, and the crime. I think they are turning away from that by calling it a museum?

It's the legacy, and whats inside that matters. the place has history, I'm sure a lot of the material is worthless, but is very important to Bryan. that's what it boils down too. can we really put a price on this? it's priceless to him, and I respect that! I'll bet you could spend a lot of time roaming the walls, and reading some scarce articles. as stupid as it sounds, my mom gave me my dads weedeater a while back, and the line was used up after using it a couple months. I quickly realized that my dad was the last one to put the line in the weedeater. it has to be hard for Bryan to either walk into the building, or walk away from it.

I don't have any problems with what they are trying to accomplish. Dona appears to have been a wonderful owner, and never had anything bad to say about people, that I am aware of. I think it's in very bad taste that it has been twisted around.

[georger]

It appears the Tavern was just a place to discuss Cooper, just as any other place. it is in the flight path, and they did set up base close to it. they basically celebrate Cooper, and the crime. I think they are turning away from that by calling it a museum?

It's the legacy, and whats inside that matters. the place has history, I'm sure a lot of the material is worthless, but is very important to Bryan. that's what it boils down too. can we really put a price on this? it's priceless to him, and I respect that! I'll bet you could spend a lot of time roaming the walls, and reading some scarce articles. as stupid as it sounds, my mom gave me my dads weedeater a while back, and the line was used up after using it a couple months. I quickly realized that my dad was the last one to put the line in the weedeater. it has to be hard for Bryan to either walk into the building, or walk away from it.

I don't have any problems with what they are trying to accomplish. Dona appears to have been a wonderful owner, and never had anything bad to say about people, that I am aware of. I think it's in very bad taste that it has been twisted around.

Once again, Blevins has warped and distorted the whole conversation. People are not going to talk about the Ariel store openly, or contribute, because Mr Blevins and R&G Enterprizes is now involved. And history is being lost! That's just a fact which these people now involved with the store could frankly "care less about"! So, part of the Ariel store History died right along with Dona. And that is a fact, sorry to say.
 

[Bruce A. Smith]

The "museum" part of the old Ariel Store was one small corner, and not very well lit. In fact, I never knew it existed until Dona pointed it out to me in August 2012, when Meyer and I stopped by while on our Amboy Chute ramble. The "museum" is more accurately described as a personal archive of Cooper stories and memorabilia that Dona had collected over the years. It's casual and eclectic. Nothing is well-preserved, ie: newspaper clippings were stapled directly to the wall or pasted there, and not protected in any fashion. Now they are yellowed and fragile pieces of paper.

But it is all very interesting. In the "museum" I got my first glimpse of the grid lines dug at T-Bar, as revealed in a Seattle Times pix . So that is what Dorwin was talking about! I said to myself.

Bryan says that Dona had gathered many more pieces suitable to house in a true museum, and he says there is a lot more than just newspaper clippings. I believe him. When I interviewed him in 2015 after the death of his mother, I encouraged him to develop this aspect of the store. He replied that it would be the center piece of the new Ariel Store.

The current rhetoric that Bryan's plan is more to build a shrine to his mother doesn't sound like Bryan, but more a political posturing by those who feel Dona's legacy is unassailable. Perhaps it is, but I never sensed that it was under any scrutiny.

Dona was a quirky gal. I found her to be endlessly disorganized and easily distracted. She loved talking about Cooper, but not one thing I ever heard her say jibed with what I knew about the case, nor was any of her commentary ever corroborated. She openly dissed Ralph Himmelsbach, but in a friendly - almost familial - manner. She also said that Himmelsbach couldn't stand her either!

It is my understanding that the Ariel Store was in existence during the ground searches of March and April 1972, and was a central watering hole because many of the soldiers on the search were camped at Merwin Dam. The innards of the building sure look like they were around in 1971, and probably long beyond that - like the one-hole toilets! (one men's and one women's).

I developed a new appreciation for Dona in the spring of 2016 when I learned that Flight 305 actually had two Coopers aboard - Dan and Michael. In 2012, Dona had told me a story about a "Michael Cooper" who had come to the Ariel Store fete on occasion, and Dona intimated that this was the skyjacker coming back to check up on his pursuers. At the time I thought it was loony-tunes talk, but then I discovered that not only did Mike and Dan both fly 305, Mike had been a suspect and investigated by the FBI, too! So, I realized that Dona's ramblings had kernels of truth wrapped in them that took me years to discern.

But the magnetism of the store is very real and transcends even Dona's personage. Artifacts have continued to arrive over the years, such as the parachute Geoffrey Gray donated to the store after the 2011 Portland Symposium, and the thousands of business cards, donated books on Norjak from authors, guest book signings and personal knick-knacks stuck all over the place from Cooper luminaries and visitors.

Plus, there's the fact that scenes from Cooper festivals are pictured in numerous Norjak documentaries. That's REAL history.

The Ariel Store is genetically intertwined into the Norjak story.

[Bruce A. Smith]

Georger, you say:

Once again, Blevins has warped and distorted the whole conversation. People are not going to talk about the Ariel store openly, or contribute, because Mr Blevins and R&G Enterprizes is now involved. And history is being lost! That's just a fact which these people now involved with the store could frankly "care less about"! So, part of the Ariel store History died right along with Dona. And that is a fact, sorry to say.


In response, I say:

I tend to agree with you, Georger. I think it is safe to say that all activities at the Ariel Store from this point forward will always have RMB's involvement. In addition, I think everything that is developed at the Store will have to serve his agendas, whether stated overtly or not. The only way for RMB to be removed from the Ariel Store's future is if Bryan Woodruff kicks him out, and I don't see that happening.

Bryan is a soft-spoken, passive kind of guy, with a strong involvement in poetry and fundamental Christianity. I have also had personal interactions with Bryan that suggest to me that he has strong chemical dependency issues to resolve. Perhaps when he finds his backbone and can conquer his demons, he will also have the strength to smitten RMB.

As for preserving the history of Cooper and the Ariel Store, RMB is distinctly unqualified to assist. He failed to appear at the 2011 Symposium in Portland and the 2013 Symposium in Tacoma, AND also never attended the WSHM exhibit of Cooper.

Then again, there is the matter of his written work on Cooper, which is best termed a novel.

[Shutter]

someone who has that type of problem shouldn't be involved in a bar. Sam Malone did, but that was on Cheers, a television show. these are more concerns that put questions into the whole thing. it has nothing to do with hate. we are talking about the real world here. not banning someone on the internet. if they remove the alcohol, I think most of the regulars will disappear with the license.

The Cooper world isn't that big, so I don't know exactly what they are going to do, but it will be costly throughout the year. bills have to be paid. Robert claimed a lot of money was received on the 27th, but refused to give the amount, then it went to "the goal was reached" flip flopping once again. 40 people had a thousand each, I guess?

I think from this standpoint, it's not really any of our concern. Robert got his wish of removing us from the menu. I'm too far away to be bothered with it. I've stated several times that Bryan needs to clear the air with this whole mess. if he wishes to ignore that, I can't do anything about that either. they wish to continue to live off of lies, and distortion, that's there choice.

I refuse to work with Robert, regardless of his activity there. his online behavior is repulsive, and unprofessional, at the least. I'm just trying to research an old unsolved hijacking. it's very simple, and I think we need to get back to that...

[Bruce A. Smith]

Bruce,

Here in my part of the country, if you are going to be spending time in the brush and away from civilization, I would recommend that you not only carry an automatic sidearm but also a high-powered rifle.

I have seen a large number of bikers packing heat and never heard of anyone around here having a problem with them or the fact that they were armed.  And a lot of other people in my neighborhood carry concealed weapons.

But if you are going to carry a weapon, make sure that you know how to use it and also when you can legally use it.

At the Gabby Giffords shooting a few years ago, after the initial barrage of 32 or 33 rounds were fired by the culprit (with 6 people killed and 13 more wounded), the fellow who managed to get the gun away from the culprit was almost shot himself by a second gunman.

It seems that an individual had felt the need to carry a concealed weapon when he went to the drug store that morning in the same shopping center.  Hearing the gunshots, he ran outside and saw a man holding a weapon (in this case the hero) and, by his own admission, came within a second or two of shooting him.  It turned out that the drug store cowboy didn't have a single second of training on WHEN to shoot.

I agree, Robert. I think your state of Arizona will soon be recognized as one of the places where the Interstate system is highly weaponized, with many drivers packing pistols and long rifles for a variety of reasons. I think we will soon see a migration of the paramilitary forces splaying out from the US-Mexico border areas and begin to develop a patrolling program on the internal AZ highways - nominally at first to find illegal aliens and drug mules, but then to offer protection to private citizens seeking protection from Mexican terrorists.

The leap from there to the next step is one long one, but very possible, especially with biker gangs such as the Freedom Riders, whom I've seen in action here in Tacoma in force. They are one scary bunch of dudes and dudettes. They are most noted here in WA as "honoring" fallen police officers at their funerary services, providing an "honor guard" to escort the families and guests after the ceremony. However, the Riders are kept under wraps by the cops until the very last minute, when they descend upon the exits and form dual lines to the parking lots, displaying ten-foot tall American Flags and standing at attention, sort of, all the while while displaying their gang colors. The last time I covered a cop funeral, I asked a police officer what he thought of having thuggy-looking people "guarding" the proceedings. He looked at me and shrugged, saying, "It's a free country," and then turned his eyes away from me.

At the end, the Riders get on their bikes and roar away. I counted over 120 bikes at the last funeral, with nearly two-hundred Riders.

I think groups like the Riders would be very happy to join such a "protection program." After that, I would think other groups will arrive with expanded agendas, such as the various factions of the Hells Angels and the Mexican gangs, such as Los Diablos.

After that, a lot of middle-class, white and Asian tourists will turn away from Arizona and the Grand Canyon and head to Disneyland, just what happened in miniature when local, white-bread tourists arrived at Ariel, saw the bikers, and turned around and left.

As for knowing when to shoot, or even more importantly, knowing when to present a firearm during a conflict, I agree training is key. When I taught gun safety, I told my students to ALWAYS be ready shoot to kill, and to not display their firearm until they were convinced a lethal solution was an option. Further, if any of my students felt they could not kill another human being, then I advised them not to carry or own a weapon.

Continuing, I think the open carry laws are dangerous because they are designed primarily to allow gun owners to strut around town and feel big about themselves. To me, that is risky and unnecessary behavior. But it's addictive, I agree. Even one of my fellow instructors in gun safety ignored our guidelines and carried a hand gun illegally all over town, including into a bank, because it was "such a rush."

Perhaps the Celts said it best:

Don't teach a young man the art of war until you've taught him how to dance. And, don't give him the tools of war until he can write a poem that will touch your soul.

[georger]

Georger, you say:

Once again, Blevins has warped and distorted the whole conversation. People are not going to talk about the Ariel store openly, or contribute, because Mr Blevins and R&G Enterprizes is now involved. And history is being lost! That's just a fact which these people now involved with the store could frankly "care less about"! So, part of the Ariel store History died right along with Dona. And that is a fact, sorry to say.


In response, I say:

I tend to agree with you, Georger. I think it is safe to say that all activities at the Ariel Store from this point forward will always have RMB's involvement. In addition, I think everything that is developed at the Store will have to serve his agendas, whether stated overtly or not. The only way for RMB to be removed from the Ariel Store's future is if Bryan Woodruff kicks him out, and I don't see that happening.

Bryan is a soft-spoken, passive kind of guy, with a strong involvement in poetry and fundamental Christianity. I have also had personal interactions with Bryan that suggest to me that he has strong chemical dependency issues to resolve. Perhaps when he finds his backbone and can conquer his demons, he will also have the strength to smitten RMB.

As for preserving the history of Cooper and the Ariel Store, RMB is distinctly unqualified to assist. He failed to appear at the 2011 Symposium in Portland and the 2013 Symposium in Tacoma, AND also never attended the WSHM exhibit of Cooper.

Then again, there is the matter of his written work on Cooper, which is best termed a novel.

There seems little doubt that Bryan wants to memorialize his mother, with time and space and funds devoted to that.  Dona and Blevins were never 'close' and I doubt Adventure Books & Staff shares Bryan's agenda. That difference may become the pivot point on which everything turns. Bryan is the owner and driving force, after all is said and done. Good luck to Bryan.   

[Shutter]

It all depends on how much the city came down on them, and what is required to bring it up to code. if it's a lot, then signed and sealed drawing will be required. if nobody really knows what they are doing there, then they need to call a contractor and at the least, get a ball park number of what they are looking at in dollars.

The codes might be a little different there. here, they don't play around, it's expensive to do any work with the city involved. I do commercial work, and everything we do has to be approved by the city. the difference is due to being in a hurricane zone.

Thousands of dollars are paid out to an engineer that does our drawings. sometimes we make the drawing, and he adds the attachments to them. (bolt size, and spacing) along with wind load factors. these will be sent to the contractor, and he submits them to the city, and we then fall under his master permit. this is all done prior to anything coming out of the ground, or any work is done. the engineer often goes above and beyond costing us more in material, and hardware (overkill)

when I'm not installing, I'm sent to locations to measure, take pics, and submit drawings of the work that needs to be done. we are typically sent the master set of drawings when the bid was made, but these are out of date most of the time, and requires a first hand look at what is really going on. I can chalk up over 500 miles in a couple days since we do work all over south Florida. I do most of the work after I return home.

I don't know what the city requires from them, but it's an adventure dealing with them, and can be costly.

I'm sensing a lot of wheels are spinning, and nothing is really getting done, other than cleaning.

Update: based on what I just read on Robert forum confirms the suspicions I had. they are trying to bring in an engineer. that should have been done months ago as I explained back when this started. I know Robert means well, but he hasn't a clue what needs to be done. you need qualified people to make the proper decisions. if they were flipping houses, they would be losing money by now. Robert appears to be at an entry level status when dealing with construction. doing punchout items is a plus, but it's nothing compared to the challenges here. I hope they can get things together soon $$$$$$$

It's not the engineer needed as much as a licensed contractor is what's really needed here! he will tell you exactly what is needed. most give free estimates.

[georger]

It all depends on how much the city came down on them, and what is required to bring it up to code. if it's a lot, then signed and sealed drawing will be required. if nobody really knows what they are doing there, then they need to call a contractor and at the least, get a ball park number of what they are looking at in dollars.

The codes might be a little different there. here, they don't play around, it's expensive to do any work with the city involved. I do commercial work, and everything we do has to be approved by the city. the difference is due to being in a hurricane zone.

Thousands of dollars are paid out to an engineer that does our drawings. sometimes we make the drawing, and he adds the attachments to them. (bolt size, and spacing) along with wind load factors. these will be sent to the contractor, and he submits them to the city, and we then fall under his master permit. this is all done prior to anything coming out of the ground, or any work is done. the engineer often goes above and beyond costing us more in material, and hardware (overkill)

when I'm not installing, I'm sent to locations to measure, take pics, and submit drawings of the work that needs to be done. we are typically sent the master set of drawings when the bid was made, but these are out of date most of the time, and requires a first hand look at what is really going on. I can chalk up over 500 miles in a couple days since we do work all over south Florida. I do most of the work after I return home.

I don't know what the city requires from them, but it's an adventure dealing with them, and can be costly.

I'm sensing a lot of wheels are spinning, and nothing is really getting done, other than cleaning.

Update: based on what I just read on Robert forum confirms the suspicions I had. they are trying to bring in an engineer. that should have been done months ago as I explained back when this started. I know Robert means well, but he hasn't a clue what needs to be done. you need qualified people to make the proper decisions. if they were flipping houses, they would be losing money by now. Robert appears to be at an entry level status when dealing with construction. doing punchout items is a plus, but it's nothing compared to the challenges here. I hope they can get things together soon $$$$$$$

It's not the engineer needed as much as a licensed contractor is what's really needed here! he will tell you exactly what is needed. most give free estimates.

Avoidance and denial - it rules the world. If that building is full of termites in that wet climate, its over with. In that event no engineer can save them.

[Shutter]

Well, lets see what happens. months have gone by, and nothing appears to be going on construction wise. might be the funding though. reading Roberts explanation of raising a floor was hilarious. I think the best thing I could pick out of the whole thing was.. "I have not a clue" (giggles)

Hopefully, they will get things going, I don't know....

[georger]

Well, lets see what happens. months have gone by, and nothing appears to be going on construction wise. might be the funding though. reading Roberts explanation of raising a floor was hilarious. I think the best thing I could pick out of the whole thing was.. "I have not a clue" (giggles)

Hopefully, they will get things going, I don't know....

Bobby answered your question about termites 4 minutes after you posted.....stalking, Robert? not him

Amazing. Blevins must be monitoring this forum 24-7. Blevins describes how 'somebody' turned on a computer during the Ariel party to 'see what they are doing over at the DBCooper Forum'. Am I the only one who finds that weird/sick? The 'somebody' Blevins mentions was probably himself.

What is Blevins' obsession with us?

Hey Blevins - get yourself a life! Let the rest of the world alone for a change. Grow up Bobby! Get yourself a plastic doll! For $29.99 you can have your own stalking partner!

Here Bobby! Meet Sarah and Sam. Now there are three of you! For another $29.99 I can have you, Sarah, and Sam cloned! And for only $299999.99 you can have your own army, cloned after you Bobby. Imagine the havoc you could inflict on Humanity then.... all for only $29.99! That's within your budget Bobby.

   

The eyes of Blevins are upon you
All the live long days
The eyes of Blevins are upon you
And you cannot get away

Do not think you can escape them
From night till early in the morn
The eyes of Blevins are upon you
Till Gabriel blows his horn