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[377]

G wrote: "btw no need to apologise for mixing up Heisenberg vs Schrodinger. It happens all the time even in physics circles.  "

The Uncertainty Principle at work...

377

[Bruce A. Smith]

   
...The idea that Cooper exited anywhere near a planned location does not wash....the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration....

Why not worthy of consideration?

How about worthy of a specific rebuttal? What is it about the procedures of the ATC in 1971 that would prevent any suggestion, indication, or measure of specificity to DB Cooper's location +/- five miles, and a prior knowledge of that likely position in that flight path?

That said, I do acknowledge Winsor's swagger. His cute remarks about a child's painting as a means of describing why no one can verify 305 was in Victor 23 are classic strut. Now, if his analysis of the flight path had been presented with relevant and substantive data we would have a worthy conversation. Lacking that, though, all we really have is wind shear in the Vortex.

Once again, we come back to a core dynamic - what kind of guy do you think DB Cooper was? A dumb-bunny, or a smart and savvy commando-type? To me, the most important contribution that Sluggo has made to the Norjak investigation is the notion that "cultural goggles" direct everything - all the investigations, research, and even the commentaries here.

Along those lines, I've noticed that those who feel Cooper was a dumb-ass are also prone to flippant answers, condescending tones, and are dismissive of those who disagree with them. I don't like it, and I don't think it serves the investigation.

[377]

Any skyjacker who knew enough to specify flap angle, cabin depressurized, max alt and gear down surely had a plan. Whether it was a practical plan is the question.

I generally agree that it should be nearly impossible to land where you planned to land unless you were directly commanding the flight path, yet McCoy and Heady did land pretty damned close to where they wanted to land.

377

[Bruce A. Smith]

G wrote: "btw no need to apologise for mixing up Heisenberg vs Schrodinger. It happens all the time even in physics circles.  "

The Uncertainty Principle at work...

377

You know, we have a direct correlation between Schrodinger's cat and DB Cooper. Is he alive or dead? Until his body is discovered, according to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle he would be both! Correct? I love it!!!

[Bruce A. Smith]

error.

[Bruce A. Smith]

Any skyjacker who knew enough to specify flap angle, cabin depressurized, max alt and gear down surely had a plan. Whether it was a practical plan is the question.

I generally agree that it should be nearly impossible to land where you planned to land unless you were directly commanding the flight path, yet McCoy and Heady did land pretty damned close to where they wanted to land.

377

Those are my assessments, too.

In addition, we know very little about an extraction team, comm gear, and the events after 8:30 pm 11.24.71. All we have are tea leaves: "Jake's" story in Skyjack, Duane's comments about being on the ground team, and McCoy's whereabouts on Thanksgiving and his hot, fresh $8,000 in his pocket the next week.

[EVickiW]

377   Just read an article in June 2016 PLAYBOY about DNA and it points out that multiple DNA's on the DB Cooper tie tack would not be usable to ID anyone from their DNA. Also note that the last three PLAYBOY issues are now PC and the girls all wear cloths! Hugh Hefner has lost his mind and I predict the readership will fall badly. He has forgotten what made the mag popular in the first place (MM with no cloths). It is getting harder to be a "nasty old man".

Bob Sailshaw
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Partial DNA can't positively ID anyone but it could rule someone out. Does the author claim that the tie or tie tack contains samples that don't match each other i.e. are multiple people's DNA?

Playboy readership will plummet without provocstive nude photos. I wonder why Hefner thinks otherwise?

Hefner just got sued by one of Cosbys victims. Claim is that Hefner facilitated Cosbys sex with underage girls at the Playboy Mansion.

377

The magazine, "Playboy", sure does come up a lot in the Cooper story.

For instance, the letters sent after the hi-jacking were comprised of letters and phrases taken out of the Playboy magazine. Hefner resembles the sketch. Hefner's DC-9 was put into service in the year 1970 and had aft stairs. Hefner has a son and he was named "Cooper".

Here is Farflung's post from the DZ regarding a close match:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4159009#4159009

I was trying to find a source where Cooper would have experience with aft stairs, needs $200,000 and fit the description.

Instead of looking at Black Ops and secret flights I turned my attention to Black Aircraft and well published flights. You got it, the private sector had exactly one jet in operation for business (yeah… riiiiiight) use and that was none other than the Playboy DC-9.

That black plane quickly became a white elephant that ate money faster than Playboy customers could read the insightful articles festooned with tasteful imagery. By 1970 they subcontracted a flight crew which is code for – holy cow this thing costs a fortune while parked on the tarmac. Strange as it may sound, the market for year old, highly modified (read trampolines, Jacuzzi and oyster bar), commercial airliners is not that vast. Yet there appears to be an inordinate demand.

By 1971 Playboy was losing money and a good chunk was on the Big Bunny. Just like every CEO today Cooper had to devise a ‘bailout’ or his company would go down the tubes. He matches the description, had military training, dressed the same until the hijacking then never wore a tie again. This is confirmed. Drinks bourbon, smokes and most importantly clearly knew how to operate the aft stairs. He even selected the next month’s Playmate to look exactly like Tina. Homage perhaps? This may be a little speculation so I’ll leave that part up to individual analysis.

Clearly he began that Golden Ticket campaign as a reminder that he got away with it.

Now Hefner is being chided for bad sex by his former fiancé. That’s why he should stick with virgins; they don’t know what bad sex is. Either way, I just hope that Hugh can find the right girl to grow old with; irrespective of his past crime.


Awww. I am missing the insight and artistic abilities of Farf! He may have been on to something.  With all those men hovered around the TV in 1970 watching the "bunnies" going up those stairs I am surprised it was such a secret that there was an opening back there. 

[georger]

G wrote: "btw no need to apologise for mixing up Heisenberg vs Schrodinger. It happens all the time even in physics circles.  "

The Uncertainty Principle at work...

377

No it is NOT the The Uncertainty Principle at work.! Thats the whole point.

[georger]

The early days at Dropzone were some of the best. People were fresh and had fresh insight. One of the best posts, imo, was that of Winsor in response to the idea suggested by Sluggo and others that the Cooper Hijacking was a well oiled plan, a crafted event from a Master. Winsor replied:

winsor  (D 13715)
Feb 20, 2008, 8:44 AM
Post #212 of 58140 (70540 views)
   
     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to]    
The idea that Cooper exited anywhere near a planned location does not wash.

For one thing, the routing of an aircraft by ATC is a game of Simon Says. Regardless of what kind of reverse-psychology you think you have dialed in, the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration.

In the same sense that it is almost impossible for a skilled artist to mimic a child's drawing without it being obvious to the trained eye that it was actually done by a pro, there is a big difference between a seasoned parachutist throwing in enough red herrings to confuse investigators and a clueless neophyte who really has no conception of what is involved. Cooper shows too many signs of being in the latter category.

I have made jumps out of a variety of jets, at altitudes ranging from pattern to Class A, in rain, snow and sleet, and into unlighted dropzones in total darkness carrying heavy loads. I am much better than average at aviation navigation and spotting, with decades of experience in both.

On the basis of the foregoing, when someone proposes a scenario wherein every part of the hijacking was part of a carefully crafted plan, I call bullshit.

If you have things under control, you don't lose money. The money was the whole reason for the exercise, so this is a big red flag that says that it did not go as planned.

All the speculation in this thread that comes from armchair quarterbacks is fine, but has little to do with reality. I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."


Blue skies,

Winsor


(This post was edited by winsor on Feb 20, 2008, 11:24 AM)

I love it! 

Excellent!  I apparently joined DZ about a year to late.  And how is Heisenberg's cat doing these days?

    You know I read that at DZ back in '08 and sat here thinking: 'what could I say, what should I say?'. I decided to stay out of it. 

What does Heisenberg's cat or more correctly 'Schrödinger's cat' have to do with this? The short answer is: Nothing.

Neither quantum physics or The Heisenberg Principle have any application in this matter.  Case closed.

Okay, sorry about that.  I'm not a cat lover so I got the owner's name confused.  Are you sure quantum physics is not involved here?

Only if Cooper was an electron! 

However, similar statistical methods could be used to evaluate the probability of deposition in flow or the probability of jump and landing zone - if enough data were available. Sadly the data is severely lacking for such determinations. That correlation is what interests me and attracts me back to the original NWA poop sheet parameters for their 'probability' search map. That is why Ive always called it a probability map, because that "is" what it is. They said their numbers were processed by a computer, presumably using standard algorithms (formulae) of the day. I dont think they would have mentioned that unless they actually went through that process. That implies they had actual 'data' to work with! They correlated data they had, probably from several sources. That implies a statistical analysis using a computer - which they refer to. That's much more sophisticated than a 'guess'. I posted about this back in 08 at Dropzone but I dont think many people even knew what I was referring to. It would be interesting to process their data using modern statistical methods. But, based on the NWA search chart they produced, I am guessing their original data points had a fairly large uncertainty, ie error factor.

Sluggo wondered if Cooper had keyed on the two large turns in the published flight path, in timing and placing his jump ... knowing he was in V23. See Sluggo's chart attached. Winsor immediately replied saying: "not so fast!" and gave his thoughts on the matter. Sluggo has always been suspicious that Cooper knew what he was doing and had an actual plan. Winsor said, "I dont see evidence of a plan, technically'. Winsor was saying: "I dont see evidence of a technically proficient person's actions in what Cooper actually did". And Winsor is an experienced expert in this matter. Winsor and Guru had very similar observations, if you recall.

But, it always comes back to the data people had to work with at the time. I personally thought Winsor's and Guru's observations were very ... persuasive ....  from a technical behavioral point of view. And if I am correct Winsor's analysis fits with the general level of 'uncertainty' that is in the data used to generate the NWA search map, in the first place.

Cooper was not an electron, is the answer.

              

btw no need to apologise for mixing up Heisenberg vs Schrodinger. It happens all the time even in physics circles. 

Cooper purportedly:

Confirmed before purchasing the boarding ticket that the aircraft was indeed a 727 on that route and flight;

Said something to the effect of: the Northwest plane just happened to be in ‘the right place at the right time’, or, ‘the flight suited his time, place, and plans’.

Does that not in itself suggest some level of research and planning?  Other indicators exist if one chooses to look.

About the same level research and planning as it takes to go to school in the morning. Even a chimpanzee can learn to do that! "Other indicators" are ? - too vague to articulate so must write a 500 page book! 

[georger]

   
...The idea that Cooper exited anywhere near a planned location does not wash....the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration....

Why not worthy of consideration?

How about worthy of a specific rebuttal? What is it about the procedures of the ATC in 1971 that would prevent any suggestion, indication, or measure of specificity to DB Cooper's location +/- five miles, and a prior knowledge of that likely position in that flight path?

That said, I do acknowledge Winsor's swagger. His cute remarks about a child's painting as a means of describing why no one can verify 305 was in Victor 23 are classic strut. Now, if his analysis of the flight path had been presented with relevant and substantive data we would have a worthy conversation. Lacking that, though, all we really have is wind shear in the Vortex.

Once again, we come back to a core dynamic - what kind of guy do you think DB Cooper was? A dumb-bunny, or a smart and savvy commando-type? To me, the most important contribution that Sluggo has made to the Norjak investigation is the notion that "cultural goggles" direct everything - all the investigations, research, and even the commentaries here.

Along those lines, I've noticed that those who feel Cooper was a dumb-ass are also prone to flippant answers, condescending tones, and are dismissive of those who disagree with them. I don't like it, and I don't think it serves the investigation.

How about you finally read and take to heart the certifications pages that came with the NWA map unless of course your expertise (at bullshitting) exceeds theirs?

[georger]

G wrote: "btw no need to apologise for mixing up Heisenberg vs Schrodinger. It happens all the time even in physics circles.  "

The Uncertainty Principle at work...

377

You know, we have a direct correlation between Schrodinger's cat and DB Cooper. Is he alive or dead? Until his body is discovered, according to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle he would be both! Correct? I love it!!!

Stop copying! You dont even know what Schrodinger's cat and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle are - and yet you spout nonsense about comparing them to DB Cooper? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Grow up. You are on a Dead End No Outlet road.

[Robert99]

Now Hefner is being chided for bad sex by his former fiancé. That’s why he should stick with virgins; they don’t know what bad sex is. Either way, I just hope that Hugh can find the right girl to grow old with; irrespective of his past crime.

Grow old with?  Hefner must be about 90.  He's already old.

Incidentally, the Playboy DC-9 ended its days hauling cargo for DHL I think it was.

So the romance eventually fades both for men and airplanes.

[Parrotheadvol]

...I've only bought one Playboy magazine ever, and that was to read an interview they did with John Mellencamp....

Mellencamp? Please tell us more!

My mother wasn't real happy when I walked in with that magazine. I tried to explain that I bought it for that interview, but she didn't really believe me even though she knew I was a huge fan of his. I actually got to join him on stage and sing with him in 1992.

[377]

377   Just read an article in June 2016 PLAYBOY about DNA and it points out that multiple DNA's on the DB Cooper tie tack would not be usable to ID anyone from their DNA. Also note that the last three PLAYBOY issues are now PC and the girls all wear cloths! Hugh Hefner has lost his mind and I predict the readership will fall badly. He has forgotten what made the mag popular in the first place (MM with no cloths). It is getting harder to be a "nasty old man".

Bob Sailshaw
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Partial DNA can't positively ID anyone but it could rule someone out. Does the author claim that the tie or tie tack contains samples that don't match each other i.e. are multiple people's DNA?

Playboy readership will plummet without provocstive nude photos. I wonder why Hefner thinks otherwise?

Hefner just got sued by one of Cosbys victims. Claim is that Hefner facilitated Cosbys sex with underage girls at the Playboy Mansion.

377

The magazine, "Playboy", sure does come up a lot in the Cooper story.

For instance, the letters sent after the hi-jacking were comprised of letters and phrases taken out of the Playboy magazine. Hefner resembles the sketch. Hefner's DC-9 was put into service in the year 1970 and had aft stairs. Hefner has a son and he was named "Cooper".

Here is Farflung's post from the DZ regarding a close match:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4159009#4159009

I was trying to find a source where Cooper would have experience with aft stairs, needs $200,000 and fit the description.

Instead of looking at Black Ops and secret flights I turned my attention to Black Aircraft and well published flights. You got it, the private sector had exactly one jet in operation for business (yeah… riiiiiight) use and that was none other than the Playboy DC-9.

That black plane quickly became a white elephant that ate money faster than Playboy customers could read the insightful articles festooned with tasteful imagery. By 1970 they subcontracted a flight crew which is code for – holy cow this thing costs a fortune while parked on the tarmac. Strange as it may sound, the market for year old, highly modified (read trampolines, Jacuzzi and oyster bar), commercial airliners is not that vast. Yet there appears to be an inordinate demand.

By 1971 Playboy was losing money and a good chunk was on the Big Bunny. Just like every CEO today Cooper had to devise a ‘bailout’ or his company would go down the tubes. He matches the description, had military training, dressed the same until the hijacking then never wore a tie again. This is confirmed. Drinks bourbon, smokes and most importantly clearly knew how to operate the aft stairs. He even selected the next month’s Playmate to look exactly like Tina. Homage perhaps? This may be a little speculation so I’ll leave that part up to individual analysis.

Clearly he began that Golden Ticket campaign as a reminder that he got away with it.

Now Hefner is being chided for bad sex by his former fiancé. That’s why he should stick with virgins; they don’t know what bad sex is. Either way, I just hope that Hugh can find the right girl to grow old with; irrespective of his past crime.


Awww. I am missing the insight and artistic abilities of Farf! He may have been on to something.  With all those men hovered around the TV in 1970 watching the "bunnies" going up those stairs I am surprised it was such a secret that there was an opening back there. 

Damn Farflung was good! Sure miss him.  He just vanished. Hope he is OK. When he and Snow left, the average IQ of the Cooper community sagged a bit. Those guys were SHARP!

377

[georger]

Now Hefner is being chided for bad sex by his former fiancé. That’s why he should stick with virgins; they don’t know what bad sex is. Either way, I just hope that Hugh can find the right girl to grow old with; irrespective of his past crime.

Grow old with?  Hefner must be about 90.  He's already old.

Incidentally, the Playboy DC-9 ended its days hauling cargo for DHL I think it was.

So the romance eventually fades both for men and airplanes.

There's always an implant!    with a switch under the armpit!