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[Shutter]

Crew Notes

had not reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or the vicinity thereof

[georger]

'Was in the suburbs of Vancouver and could see the lights of someplace coming up!" (Carr/Rataczak.)

Here is an aerial view of the night lights of Washington State.  Though it was taken in 2015, it may show us what the pilots may, or may not have, seen.

Was that photo taken from space?  I think 305 was at 10,000 feet. 

[Shutter]

'Was in the suburbs of Vancouver and could see the lights of someplace coming up!" (Carr/Rataczak.)

Here is an aerial view of the night lights of Washington State.  Though it was taken in 2015, it may show us what the pilots may, or may not have, seen.

Was that photo taken from space?  I think 305 was at 10,000 feet. 

It looks rather high. sat photo I'll bet...

[georger]

Crew Notes

had not reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or the vicinity thereof

You will note*  there are no time stamps on the NWA search map while the FBI (yellow) map has time stamps.

The NWA search map line A-B is well outside what anyone could call 'the suburbs (or vicinity of suburbs) of ... ' unless of course you are flying at Mach-2?

The NWA search map has inherent error, both in times and positions, due to the technology of the day. By today's standards that flight path plot wouldn't pass a college course in navigation! And yet they used that map to justify and conduct an actual search. Somebody had faith in that map at the time.

What's missing from the NWA search map and notes? The No pull DOA line!       

Can we assume the crew testimony was incorporated in the NWA search map?  Scott seemed satisfied with that and had little to say afterward. Rataczak started a dialog which lasts to this very day! Who should we believe, when?   

[Shutter]

Crew Notes

had not reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or the vicinity thereof

You will note*  there are no time stamps on the NWA search map while the FBI (yellow) map has time stamps.

The NWA search map line A-B is well outside what anyone could call 'the suburbs (or vicinity of suburbs) of ... ' unless of course you are flying at Mach-2?

The NWA search map has inherent error, both in times and positions, due to the technology of the day. By today's standards that flight path plot wouldn't pass a college course in navigation! And yet they used that map to justify and conduct an actual search. Somebody had faith in that map at the time.

What's missing from the NWA search map and notes? The No pull DOA line!     

we have the record showing the oscillation, but we don't have the time of the bump. I believe the search area is in the oscillation area, and not the bump. I still think the last couple turns just before the Columbia were to shake him up on the stairs, if he was still on them?

[georger]

Crew Notes

had not reached Portland proper, but were definitely in the suburbs or the vicinity thereof

You will note*  there are no time stamps on the NWA search map while the FBI (yellow) map has time stamps.

The NWA search map line A-B is well outside what anyone could call 'the suburbs (or vicinity of suburbs) of ... ' unless of course you are flying at Mach-2?

The NWA search map has inherent error, both in times and positions, due to the technology of the day. By today's standards that flight path plot wouldn't pass a college course in navigation! And yet they used that map to justify and conduct an actual search. Somebody had faith in that map at the time.

What's missing from the NWA search map and notes? The No pull DOA line!     

we have the record showing the oscillation, but we don't have the time of the bump. I believe the search area is in the oscillation area, and not the bump. I still think the last couple turns just before the Columbia were to shake him up on the stairs, if he was still on them?

Then why didnt they search where they were shaking the stairs ?

[nmiwrecks]

'Was in the suburbs of Vancouver and could see the lights of someplace coming up!" (Carr/Rataczak.)

Here is an aerial view of the night lights of Washington State.  Though it was taken in 2015, it may show us what the pilots may, or may not have, seen.

Was that photo taken from space?  I think 305 was at 10,000 feet. 

It looks rather high. sat photo I'll bet...

The pilots could have guessed where the cities were by the amount of light pollution they saw.  The image demonstrates that Vancouver and Portland may look like one mass from above the clouds, while rural Washington appears to be pitch black. 

[Shutter]

Imagine hanging on the stairs with the plane rolling to the right.....

[Shutter]

Then why didnt they search where they were shaking the stairs ?

Carr stated that he believes they missed the bump, and relied on the oscillation.. I'll have to find Carrs post.

[georger]

Then why didnt they search where they were shaking the stairs ?

Carr stated that he believes they missed the bump, and relied on the oscillation.. I'll have to find Carrs post.

Yes. That and the last comm from Cooper at 8:05 ? All very fuzzy. But they were busy being busy! Hard to concentrate when in the next moment you may be a fireball of flying debris and suitcases! "Tina says he may jump soon".

The Carr comment seems to verify Anderson's account - they were unsure and had to "discuss" it ... before Rataczak broke the stalemate and called it in! How many micro-seconds passed due to indecision?  Still they made a map and launched the Army in a search ... months later after evidently processing the 'indecision' further ? They ran a test to verify the "oscillations and a pressure burp". All doubt removed they asked an IBM mainframe to draw a map, in PL1? Or Fortran? Snowball? Owl? Squirrel? I forget what it was. Map in hand they launched the search.

If Carr had to ask about oscillations vs. bump maybe the FBI didnt have it figured out yet either? 

They must have been very confident of what they had. I have no idea who "they" is! Otherwise they could have sent in just one helicopter with a Team of Rangers and asked them to track and find the bastard - game over!  Obviously they lacked that degree of confidence to do that.

[Shutter]

anyway you look at this, either from the west or the east the plane is very close to the Columbia river if he jumped around the time given.

[nmiwrecks]

The issue seems to be opinion vs. fact.  Where the plane was when he jumped, where his landing zone was, which layer of soil the money was found in, etc., are all are based on the opinions of human beings, whose opinions seem to be as varied as the opinions of the personalities on this site.
One of the most telling facts of this case is that part of the ransom money was found in the bank of a river just a few miles downstream from where the plane crossed and no other signs of the money have ever been found.  I’ll take that fact over all the opinions in this case combined.

[Shutter]

The plane crossed the Columbia upstream from the money find (fact)
The money location presents a problem for the flight path (fact)

The area around the money location was dredged and placed very close to the money location (fact)

The FBI, and the Fazio's claim the sand was only spread 50 yards north and south of the spoil (fact)

The soil samples (layers) done by the Army Corps, and Palmer show a dredge layer that exceeds the 50 yard limit (fact)

It's troubling, even with known facts...

[nmiwrecks]

The FBI, and the Fazio's claim the sand was only spread 50 yards north and south of the spoil (fact)

It's a fact they stated this claim, but the claim is their opinion, if you get my meaning.  Could they be wrong?  I think they could, but that's splitting hairs, maybe.

To me, where the plane crossed the river isn't that important.  The river is a vehicle that can transport money bags, bodies, and even much larger objects many, many miles.  Whether the plane crossed 100 yards, or 7 miles upstream doesn't affect the end result: part of the ransom money was found in the bank of the river the plane crossed some distance upstream.

Timing of the jump is troubling for the money ending up in the river directly from the plane.  But, again, that timing is mostly based on the opinions of human beings, and should be weighted as such.

I think talking these things through is extremely helpful in understanding this case.  There are so many variables, and so few facts to go on.

[Shutter]

I don't think it's "splitting hairs" at all.

I think it's extremely important to know where the sand was placed on the bank of the river. the opinion of the FBI appears to be weak when you look at some of the known facts.

My opinion of the facts surrounding the layers, and location of the money find give me reasons to question the facts we have. it doesn't mean the money got on the banks by the dredge, but it makes me wonder about the possibilities of it arriving by dredge.

Every theory has it's own set of pros & cons...