Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 2034696 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1395 on: April 23, 2016, 10:13:40 PM »
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The discussion of the crew notes didn't go over as well as I thought they would...
Could you please elaborate?


It didn't seem to spark a lot of conversation, and questions.
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1396 on: April 23, 2016, 11:06:57 PM »
congrats back up! +++++ :)
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1397 on: April 23, 2016, 11:13:12 PM »
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The discussion of the crew notes didn't go over as well as I thought they would...
Could you please elaborate?

It didn't seem to spark a lot of conversation, and questions.

I was surprised also, but we have a different crowd now than was on DZ. I think those notes will play a larger role in the future.

I might also add:  I had my first personal conversation with Bruce Smith today, by telephone. I found Bruce very down to earth and forthcoming and we had a very interesting conversation about a number of issues. Personalities in Cooperland, core issues in the case, flight path issues from a number of points of view, and on and on.

It was a very nice informative conversation and I want to acknowledge Bruce... I think more will follow from this. 

G
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 11:14:17 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1398 on: April 24, 2016, 02:06:41 AM »
Thanks, G, I enjoyed the conversation, too. I trust we will have more of them in the days to come.

Also, Shut, you deserve a shout out for the crew reports. However you got 'em, I'm glad you got 'em. I consider them to be very valuable. There was any big whoop-di-do when they appeared here, true, in terms of discussions and controversies, but they are a rock-solid piece of evidence that we can consult and compare other perspectives.

For instance, what I'm hearing from the passengers these days does not jibe with what the crew was saying in terms of crowd control. I'm not even sure who sat where. But clearly Alice is incorrect in saying that no passengers got closer to DB Cooper than Row 14. Apparently, the passengers stayed in their seats and used the rear lavatory until 305 began its descent into Sea-Tac. In fact, it sounds like a lot of passengers sat all over the rear of the aircraft.

Here's what I've got so far:

Row 18: Mitchell, Gregory (?), and D. Cooper
Row 17: M. Cooper
Row 16: Nancy House
Row 12: Pollart and Labissioniere
Row 8: Almstad
Row 6: Finegold (A), B. Simmons (F), R Simmons, (E)

Up in First Class:
 -3 MacPhersons
- Floyd Kloepfer
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 02:07:30 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1399 on: April 24, 2016, 02:14:31 AM »
They could of been covering for a lack of discipline with the passenger's. they might of been to focused on Cooper.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1400 on: April 24, 2016, 02:36:58 AM »
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congrats back up! +++++ :)

We might have a few of the last couple postings missing, but everything else appears to be ok....
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1401 on: April 24, 2016, 02:50:37 AM »
I just received an email from Jo. she wishes to clear a few things up.

1) She only wishes to view this site. she doesn't want to post anything.

2) She never joined Bobby's site. I think I can verify that one. I remember her telling me Bobby signed her up.

3) She is still active, but has medical issue that are slowing her down.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1402 on: April 24, 2016, 04:33:53 AM »
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They could of been covering for a lack of discipline with the passenger's. they might of been to focused on Cooper.


That's my guess - that the crew was instructed to re-write the scenario of crowd control to put NWO in the best light, which would be a very directive handling of the passengers. Move 'em up in the early minutes of the skyjacking, and keep 'em out of harm's way.

Don't forget, too, somebody ushered G-Man-Johnny off the plane when he burst on board before Tina could get off for the money. I suppose it was Alice, whom I assume was sitting in the First Class area. When the moolah starts rolling in, I will re-visit with Alice, Tina, Flo, and Billy, and give them a copy of the book. Perhaps it might be a chance to talk about what's in the book. Or not. And all that will go in the 3rd Edition.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 04:35:18 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1403 on: April 24, 2016, 05:27:19 AM »
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They could of been covering for a lack of discipline with the passenger's. they might of been to focused on Cooper.


That's my guess - that the crew was instructed to re-write the scenario of crowd control to put NWO in the best light, which would be a very directive handling of the passengers. Move 'em up in the early minutes of the skyjacking, and keep 'em out of harm's way.

Don't forget, too, somebody ushered G-Man-Johnny off the plane when he burst on board before Tina could get off for the money. I suppose it was Alice, whom I assume was sitting in the First Class area. When the moolah starts rolling in, I will re-visit with Alice, Tina, Flo, and Billy, and give them a copy of the book. Perhaps it might be a chance to talk about what's in the book. Or not. And all that will go in the 3rd Edition.

Im not sure there was an effort to claim 'total order'? For example, didn't Larry admit that people were up and moving around, using the head, etc early in the flight even after the crew was aware of the note? With Tina/Flo sitting beside Cooper. B. Simmons got up and went to the head - Cooper glared at him coming and going. Back in his seat Simmons looked back. Several others got up and used the head. Mitchell was sitting right across the isle wondering why the 'old man' was getting all the attention. Didn't Larry confirm all of this?

Once landed, I think the guy you keep calling an FBI cowboy was the FAA guy who came on board and wanted to talk to Cooper? Cooper rejected that. People had to witnesses Tina coming and going ... and that was anything but smooth (except for being an Academy Award performance!) Tina should have been given an Oscar in 71!  :)   
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 05:29:02 AM by georger »
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1404 on: April 24, 2016, 11:30:59 AM »
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I might also add:  I had my first personal conversation with Bruce Smith today, by telephone. I found Bruce very down to earth and forthcoming and we had a very interesting conversation about a number of issues. Personalities in Cooperland, core issues in the case, flight path issues from a number of points of view, and on and on.

It was a very nice informative conversation and I want to acknowledge Bruce... I think more will follow from this. 

G

Just curious, Georger,

Did you ever speak to Robert Blevins?
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1405 on: April 24, 2016, 02:07:57 PM »
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I might also add:  I had my first personal conversation with Bruce Smith today, by telephone. I found Bruce very down to earth and forthcoming and we had a very interesting conversation about a number of issues. Personalities in Cooperland, core issues in the case, flight path issues from a number of points of view, and on and on.

It was a very nice informative conversation and I want to acknowledge Bruce... I think more will follow from this. 

G

Just curious, Georger,

Did you ever speak to Robert Blevins?

Th short answer is, No. I finally tried one night years ago after Blevins kept egging me on to call him, calling me a 'chicken' and a 'phony'. This was early in his career at Dropzone. Blevins had made a number of late night hang up calls to my residence playing his You Tube music he had just posted about at DZ. I think he already had a plan to try and degrade and dispense with me. There is a two hour time difference between Blevins and the Midwest - he knows that. I complained to Quade about it but to no avail. Finally after one of these episodes about 2:00am my time I did a *69 and called him right back. His phone rang and rang and rang with nobody answering. Then immediately Blevins posted to DZ "Georger just called me and Gayla late at night ........how dare he do that blah blah blah". Blevins has used that against me hundreds of times through the years. He suckered me in to call, then I called, and then he complained about my calling basically saying he would turn me in to law enforcement if I ever *disturbed him and Gayla late at night again... 

That is the Blevins I learned to know.

I can tell you this: when I signed up at Dropzone I sure didn't expect to go through all the "crap" we went through there. And the sources of it all were easy to identify. Jo Weber. Then to a lesser extent but still a lot of nonsense: Snowmman. Airtwardo and Amazon. And then came RobertMBlevins! About a year before the end Shutter and a few others left, and I followed very quietly. When Blevins caught on that people had left Dropzone and formed another forum he went nuts and claimed I had been "permabanned". Weber didn't care; she went right on as usual. A year later with only Blevins and Weber left, the owner of DZ closed the Cooper thread, if you recall. Weber was left stranded and Blevins went over and started his own forum at Google, and Google closed Blevins down there due to personal attack complaints sent to Google.

What is there to talk to Blevins about?

There are many levels in socalled Cooperland. In the State of Washington, and to some extent in Oregon, DB Cooper became almost a 'family affair' to a lot of people. The hijacking affected a lot of people in one way or another and people have used the event to mark time. Others, were not affected. The event rippled through people's lives in Washington, with constant reminders from the media, and left a legacy which has aged now 40+ years later. Jo Weber picked up on this very early and has exploited it ever since. Jo's telephone conversation with people in the State of Washington over the years is a legend of it's own, literally! Blevins says he was in high school when the hijacking occurred but beyond that Blevins has never shown much interest until lately in trying to connect to the 'family side' of the Cooper legacy which people were a living part of, or had their lives impacted by.

The Ariel store and Dona Elliot's family and the Woodruff family have legitimate historical ties to the Cooper hijacking, just as Tina's Bar, the Fazios and Brian Ingram and the Ingram family at Vancouver came to have a legitimate tie. The massive search for Cooper directly impacted people in the Ariel area over to Amboy. One legacy from that which Bryan Woodruff is absolutely correct about is that the 'Ariel Store' gained world-wide notoriety as a gathering place right in the heart of the DB Cooper search area. That is the legacy that Blevins is now trying to attach himself to, without any prior affiliation or attachment! I just find this a little curious and hilarious. Isn't it a little like one of us suddenly going to Princeton New Jersey and staking out Albert Einstein's home to somehow get attached to the Einstein legacy?  8) :)

As Dona herself said: "You come in a stranger and you leave a friend". It stood Dona well for many-many years. That is what became Dona's legacy at the Ariel Store. And I hope for everyone's sake it continues.

In loving memory - to Dona and all the others.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 03:36:03 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1406 on: April 24, 2016, 03:38:49 PM »
People have a right to an opinion on anything discussed on a public forum. Robert takes things out of context (huge history of this) and gives false impressions of things.

I decided not to get involved with the whole Ariel issue mainly because Robert has attached himself to it. now, the peaceful town has censorship involved with it. he's spending a lot of time spewing hatred about this forum. I don't see once this really gets out how it will help there cause?

The Tavern was never really a profitable business. it's my understanding it wasn't really a store, or a bar. it could possibly end up being public funded year round? who is paying the bills for the off Cooper times? I hope Bryan can pull this off.
 

Offline Prospector

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1407 on: April 24, 2016, 04:27:57 PM »
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The discussion of the crew notes didn't go over as well as I thought they would...
Could you please elaborate?


It didn't seem to spark a lot of conversation, and questions.

Perhaps not yet, but they do contain very valuable information.  A lot of color in that pan.  Many thanks for the effort to acquire and post them, and again for directing me toward them.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1408 on: April 24, 2016, 04:46:07 PM »
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Im not sure there was an effort to claim 'total order'? For example, didn't Larry admit that people were up and moving around, using the head, etc early in the flight even after the crew was aware of the note? With Tina/Flo sitting beside Cooper. B. Simmons got up and went to the head - Cooper glared at him coming and going. Back in his seat Simmons looked back. Several others got up and used the head. Mitchell was sitting right across the isle wondering why the 'old man' was getting all the attention. Didn't Larry confirm all of this?

Once landed, I think the guy you keep calling an FBI cowboy was the FAA guy who came on board and wanted to talk to Cooper? Cooper rejected that. People had to witnesses Tina coming and going ... and that was anything but smooth (except for being an Academy Award performance!) Tina should have been given an Oscar in 71!  :)   


I'll have to check on what Larry said and didn't say. My memory of Ckret's commentaries are hazy, and the Larry "log" developed by the WSHM (?) on his postings are helpful but I've found it incomplete. Perhaps we could establish one here, Shut? Gather all of the Ckret material from the DZ and put it under one roof?

For me, the more important issue is how much moving around by the passengers was actually going on? My previous understanding of the situation was that the passengers were moved forward once the crew settled down in the cockpit - about 20 minutes into the flight, and no one used the rear lav afterwards. That's not what I'm hearing these days, especially from Michael Cooper and Larry Finegold, and it supports what Jack Almstad told me several years back. By the way, I believe that Jack has passed away. His old phone number in Livermore, CA is disconnected, and there is no number listed for his wife Joyce posted in the state of California.

A minor point, "B." Simmons, would be Barbara Simmons, but I believe it was her husband "R." (Richard) who made the claim that Cooper stared at him during a potty run. Sluggo and I talked about this a bit, and Slug felt strongly that Richard was fabricating much of his story since he did not present himself to the FBI at the debrief as one of folks who had a good look at the hijacker or had any kind of encounter or interaction with him. Only five passengers self-identified themselves as being in that category: Mitchell, Labissioniere, House, Gregory, and Zrem-Spreckel.

Adding more confusion, in my mind, the Simmons were sitting in First Class, according to Geoffrey Gray, so why would they hike all the way back to the rear of the plane to pee?

Along those lines, still unresolved for me is where Robert Gregory was sitting. In Tacoma, GG showed FBI docs say 18C, but Himms says that D Cooper was in 18C. Further, Bill Mitchell says his school books were in 18C, his parka in 18 A, and his sleepy-little ass was in 18 B.

As Bill has clammed up on me, and hasn't really talked to any journalists (except for our one brief chat), I'm beginning to mistrust his statements. His description of Cooper as a "geeky" mess with a "turkey gobble" dangling down his neck seems more of a revisionist point of view that is emerging more these days - and I suspect the FBI is behind it - trying to color DB Cooper as more of a "schlub." Geoffrey Gray has begun using that exact term in media interviews these days when he describes DB Cooper, and this contrasts strongly with Tina's characterizations of the skyjacker as a gentlemen, and the many passenger accounts in the newspapers that also say he was a quiet, well-dressed gentleman.

Lastly, G-Man-Johnny is a character put on the plane by Larry Finegold. Larry says he knew the guy who entered the plane when the door opened by name, and he knew he was an FBI agent since they had worked together on cases. Further, Larry says that the FBI guy told him there was a hijacker on board. I ain't making this stuff up. I'm just reporting what one guy- Larry - said. Yes, it's not corroborated by anyone else, yet, but Larry Finegold was the US ADA, so I give his statements a lot of credibility. File this under: "To Be Continued."
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #1409 on: April 24, 2016, 05:01:44 PM »
Passenger Update - MIAs

The current list of missing in action, or no information available:

1, 2. George Labissioniere. After being a guy who talked with media immediately after the hijacking, George is now missing, or deceased. He has been the attorney for Les Pollart, another passenger, who is another passenger on whom I can not find any details or contact info, other than GG's statements that LP owned a trucking firm.

3. Ray Clouse - zippo.

4, 5, 6. Robert, Lynn, and Mrs. Cummings. All zip.

7. Patrick Minsch.  GG says he was a heavy equip operator and on his way to grandma's house, but that's all I have on him.

8. Nancy House. Zip. But GG does say that she was the passenger who spotted DBC with the burlap bag, being carried on top of the briefcase as DBC left the rear lav.

9. Robert Gregory. Now deceased according to family at the 2013 Symposium, but contact info is nil. We researchers failed to follow-up with the family, alas.

10, 11. B and R Simmons. Zippo.

12. George Kurota. GG says he was a Japanese business man, but other than that, zip.

13. Cord Harms Zrem-Spreckel. GG says he owned a print shop in Seattle, but I can't find any current contact info.

14. Cliff McDonald. Zip, although GG writes that he was a real estate broker.

15. Floyd Kloepfer. Still working on it. I've got a slim lead.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 05:06:31 PM by Bruce A. Smith »