Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 775179 times)

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #795 on: November 14, 2015, 03:00:05 AM »
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?

If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record.  Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.


It would be interesting to know the last 727 leaving Portland prior to Cooper boarding Northwest. he said he "didn't have a grudge against your airline, it was at the right place, and right time"

Could be possible to get a more accurate time of his movement prior to boarding, but I'm guessing the airport had 727's round the clock coming, and going?

The actual quoted statement is:

In response to her query as to why he had chosen a Northwest airplane to hijack, he said ā€˜he had ā€œa grudge but not against Northwest Airlinesā€ adding ā€˜that the Northwest plane just happened to be in the right place at the right timeā€™.
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #796 on: November 14, 2015, 03:02:11 AM »
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The stairs....

Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....

Quote
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..

Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?


In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight.  Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps.  And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered.  This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him.  This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.

So which version did 305 have?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #797 on: November 14, 2015, 11:34:49 AM »
I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)

"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.

Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 11:39:31 AM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #798 on: November 14, 2015, 12:51:51 PM »
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The stairs....

Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....

Quote
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..

Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?


In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight.  Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps.  And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered.  This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him.  This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.

So which version did 305 have?

The standard production NWA airline version.  But check the reply to Shutter below.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 01:04:22 PM by Robert99 »
 

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #799 on: November 14, 2015, 01:03:36 PM »
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I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)

"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.

Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators

There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s.  Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.

And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne.  Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #800 on: November 14, 2015, 02:56:24 PM »
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I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)

"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.

Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators

There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s.  Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.

And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne.  Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.

Even to its own members of the Boeing Sky Diving Club, who worked with the NWA & FBI on the case ?
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #801 on: November 19, 2015, 12:46:44 AM »
How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #802 on: November 19, 2015, 02:52:19 AM »
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I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)

"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.

Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators

There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s.  Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.

And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne.  Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.

Even to its own members of the Boeing Sky Diving Club, who worked with the NWA & FBI on the case ?

Regardless of what 377 claims, a Boeing spokesman gave it to the whole world via the Assoc Press  On Nov 30th. So if it was Top Secret before 11-24-71 it was known to the whole world after the 30th of Nov 1971. I'm always skeptical of well known secrets thousands of people know about ... but the next guy doesn't!  ;)

Oh. And citing airplanes that don't have stairs but have been jumped siccessfully ... has nothing to do with this! Erecting a straw man is not an argument or proof of anything .. specifically, socalled secrecy issues of the 727.  :)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 02:58:13 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #803 on: November 19, 2015, 03:28:28 AM »
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?

I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."

Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #804 on: November 19, 2015, 07:34:54 PM »
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?

I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."

Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.

I'll have to re-read that part.
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #805 on: November 19, 2015, 08:00:52 PM »
Burnworth is not only a 727 pilot, he is a systems expert. He has an issued patent that discloses a significant improvement to the way Boeing manages 727 power busses. Interestingly it is centered around electrical loads as they relate to wing flap extension.

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Patent number: 4317177
Abstract: A control system prevents electrical overloads in an aircraft of the type in which electrical loads are automatically connected to an electrical supply bus when the wing flaps are extended. The control system determines the maximum capability of the electrical generators for generating electricity and determines the wing flap position. Because electrical load is related to the wing flap position in this type of aircraft, the control system automatically correlates the wing flap position to electrical load. The control system operatively disconnects electrical load from the supply bus, or prevents energization of additional electrical load, when it determines that the maximum power generating capacity of the operative electrical generators will be exceeded by the automatic connection of the electrical load upon extension of the wing flaps.A test circuit apparatus is used for checking proper operation of the control system.
Type: Grant
Filed: January 14, 1980
Issued: February 23, 1982
Assignee: Martin P. Miller
Inventor: Donald O. Burnworth

377

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #806 on: November 19, 2015, 09:26:17 PM »
Don was an interesting interview. Often hard to corral and cranky when it came to returning phone calls, he nevertheless loved talking about DB Cooper. He told his story with such conviction and clarity it was often easy to forget that he was bat-shit crazy. But such is madness. He was also wonderfully honest about his love-life, amazing me with his accounts of chasing after his wife and kids with his mistress in tow.

And just when I thought Don was totally certifiable, I had a guy in KC "law enforcement" tell me that the story about Don's ex's mafia princess family staging the DB Cooper skyjacking as a ploy to obtain child custody wasn't totally coo-coo. In fact, he told me that "la senora" wasn't as squeaky clean as the official records indicated, but "you didn't hear that from me."

I didn't put THAT in the book, by the way, since neither 377 nor Galen have passed the bar in Kansas. Just sayin'...

Lastly, Don passed away in 2012 of cancer. He was 82.

RIP, Captain.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 09:28:54 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #807 on: November 20, 2015, 12:07:37 AM »
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?

I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."

Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.

I'll have to re-read that part.

Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason? You can read all the essentials here, basically, in a serie of posts le Dropzone.com: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

That and of course these fishbones to fill in any missing links: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:08:42 AM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #808 on: November 20, 2015, 01:44:19 AM »
Quote
Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason?

I'm not revisiting, I wasn't there. I bother you guys because you have all the shortcuts.
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #809 on: November 20, 2015, 03:44:22 AM »
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Quote
Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason?

I'm not revisiting, I wasn't there. I bother you guys because you have all the shortcuts.

It's no bother, Andra-, and it has historical value. I just wanted you to see where the core of forum discussion about about this subject was, what had been said before, etc. As long as the DZ archive is still alive its a valuable resource.
 8)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 03:45:25 AM by georger »