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Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 775017 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #555 on: August 18, 2015, 03:13:45 PM »
Hmm, well, I'm sure there is an area considered public property on the shoreline. I think the money falls outside of that perimeter if it was found up in, or near the treeline? that puts it some 60+ feet away from average water levels?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 03:15:14 PM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #556 on: August 19, 2015, 03:52:17 AM »
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?

No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!

Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...

And where did the sand come from that covered it?  That sand was working its way downhill from somewhere.

Are you sure that the Fazio's owned the land to the water's edge, which changed hourly?

I have no idea here their land stopped. I think at the water's edge? Sand during high water also travels laterally.
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Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #557 on: August 19, 2015, 12:35:31 PM »
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?

No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!

Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...

And where did the sand come from that covered it?  That sand was working its way downhill from somewhere.

Are you sure that the Fazio's owned the land to the water's edge, which changed hourly?

I have no idea here their land stopped. I think at the water's edge? Sand during high water also travels laterally.

Okay, to be more precise, the sand is always working its way downhill and downstream due to the natural forces of gravity and water.  If the sand moves otherwise, it is due to "un-natural" forces of such things as dredges.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #558 on: August 19, 2015, 02:16:04 PM »
Floods, and higher tides could bring sediments onto the beach as well....
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Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #559 on: August 19, 2015, 02:57:30 PM »
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Floods, and higher tides could bring sediments onto the beach as well....

They can only bring them from upstream or from a higher water level to a lower water level.

The sand is always moving to a lower energy state, in this case a lower elevation above sea level.  If the sand is moving to a higher energy state, something (such as a dredge or other human activity) has to add that additional energy to achieve a higher energy state.

Actually, the reason that water runs downhill is because it is going to a lower energy state.  And in going downhill, water can lose energy by going through the electrical generating turbines of a dam, by eroding the landscape, or just dissipating energy as "heat" as it goes through a rapids in a river.

No physical process is 100 percent efficient.  If that were true, we could have Perpetual Motion Machines.  As Mother Nature operates today, they are simply not possible.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 03:09:00 PM by Robert99 »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #560 on: August 20, 2015, 04:56:48 AM »

Copy/Paste

Anglers called the state Department of Natural Resources complaining that the Fazios put a fence on public land.
A survey for the Fazios by Minister & Glaeser Surveying of Vancouver determined the family owns down to 4.385 feet Columbia River Datum.
Steven Ivey, aquatic land surveyor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said Tuesday he was asked to review the survey and found no flaws.
Columbia River Datum is the measuring stick used by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to determine river height.

Ivey said the line of mean high tide is normally the boundary used to determine privately owned uplands and publicly owned beach.
The Columbia River is complicated due to the interplay of tidal influence and streamflow released out of Bonneville Dam, Ivey said.
Because dredge spoils are intermittently deposited at Tena Bar, the boundary is not determined at the vegetation line, he said.
"At the Fazios, it's complicated and site-specific,'' Ivey said.
The Columbia drops to 4.38 feet in July and mostly stays below that height until about Thanksgiving, according to tables compiled by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Only the beach lower than 4.38 feet is public.

"These people would tell me it's public property,'' Fazio said. "Now, I know where the boundaries are. It's private. I feel like I've got a bullseye on back. If someone gets hurt, I'm liable.''
"We're asking people nicely to leave,'' he added. "They can go to Frenchmen's Bar or Caterpillar Island, which is owned by DNR. There's public land at Davis Bar, too.''
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 04:57:19 AM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #561 on: August 20, 2015, 03:16:59 PM »
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Copy/Paste

Anglers called the state Department of Natural Resources complaining that the Fazios put a fence on public land.
A survey for the Fazios by Minister & Glaeser Surveying of Vancouver determined the family owns down to 4.385 feet Columbia River Datum.
Steven Ivey, aquatic land surveyor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said Tuesday he was asked to review the survey and found no flaws.
Columbia River Datum is the measuring stick used by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to determine river height.

Ivey said the line of mean high tide is normally the boundary used to determine privately owned uplands and publicly owned beach.
The Columbia River is complicated due to the interplay of tidal influence and streamflow released out of Bonneville Dam, Ivey said.
Because dredge spoils are intermittently deposited at Tena Bar, the boundary is not determined at the vegetation line, he said.
"At the Fazios, it's complicated and site-specific,'' Ivey said.
The Columbia drops to 4.38 feet in July and mostly stays below that height until about Thanksgiving, according to tables compiled by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Only the beach lower than 4.38 feet is public.

"These people would tell me it's public property,'' Fazio said. "Now, I know where the boundaries are. It's private. I feel like I've got a bullseye on back. If someone gets hurt, I'm liable.''
"We're asking people nicely to leave,'' he added. "They can go to Frenchmen's Bar or Caterpillar Island, which is owned by DNR. There's public land at Davis Bar, too.''

Fazio has a real point there, however in a situation like this defending it can be a total PITA and could be expensive if someone wished to push it .... hope there was no barbed wire or razor wire on his fence or glass on the ground!   :-*  :) :) :)

My family owned land along the DesMoines River once. It was a total pain to deal with jerks trespassing to get to the river.  They would go up and break into the cabin ... the stone in that fireplace had been brought from Dakota where Uncle Burt was an engineer in the Mt Rushmore project ... people chipped large rose quartz stones out of our fireplace! It was endless. We finally closed the whole thing and burned the cabin. There are still initials etcx carved in the oak tress around there from when the family was young ... and the current new owner wont even let me go up there to the old cabin site!

Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 03:31:18 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #562 on: August 20, 2015, 03:40:03 PM »
You always have someone who will ruin things for others. Paul mentioned something about a 20 foot rule. don't know if he was right or not?

The guy on the property you use to own sounds like a prick... :(

Quote
Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?

I believe Bruce jumped in the river from there..perhaps he can state something?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 03:41:35 PM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #563 on: August 20, 2015, 03:59:11 PM »
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You always have someone who will ruin things for others. Paul mentioned something about a 20 foot rule. don't know if he was right or not?

The guy on the property you use to own sounds like a prick... :(

Quote
Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?

I believe Bruce jumped in the river from there..perhaps he can state something?

The new owner of one of the farms doesnt have much money - he is petrified of getting sued and I cant half blame him for closing things off. Our family owned that land for generations and its still called _________________Section. His stance is "I own it now!" But his big concern is being sued and protecting his stock and his fences. He only owns a fraction of the two sections my family owned. The original two sections has been split into 27 pieces since 1966! It's unreal. The old stone fireplace still stands where the cabin was. We used to have 100+ people at that cabin for celebrations when I was growing up... we even had an old hermit living in it for two winters when I was a kid. The well was still good and he burned wood and coal in the winter. All of my cousins and friends and I used to spend time there camping and fishing etc ... it was a right of passage to do survival stints there growing up! In any event the guy doesn't want me and my grandkids there ... I could have bought all of the land over looking the river near the old cabin for $1.00 from my family in 1966! I wish I had now. My wife and I were miles away at college and we decidided we would never-ever use it! The taxes on it were nothing. I wish I had it today - live and learn.

Yes ask Bruce about swimming at Tina's Bar! Bruce may be one of the people who said the current was very strong right off Tina Bar. ?

   
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 04:08:09 PM by georger »
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Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #564 on: August 20, 2015, 04:13:55 PM »
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Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
 

A strong current just off shore at Tina Bar would suggest that the money came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the mainland.

The water coming down the channel would be slower than the main river current and when they contact each other at the downstream end of Caterpillar Island, the result would be clockwise vortices (as seen from above) which would drive the debris from the channel flow onto the beach.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #565 on: August 20, 2015, 04:30:36 PM »
Post #1213 from Tina Bar thread on this forum by Bruce Smith....

Quote
As far as I know, I am the only Coop guy to go swimming at T-Bar, as it was 105 degrees when I was there. Water was delightful, but the current was amazingly strong. Scary, even. Very bizarre to be swimming and see a freighter go by. At the Frenchman's Bar County Park, thousands of folks go swimming in the Columbia, and the lifeguards patrol the swimming area on jet skis. Interesting.
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georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #566 on: August 21, 2015, 01:24:14 AM »
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Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
 

A strong current just off shore at Tina Bar would suggest that the money came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the mainland.

The water coming down the channel would be slower than the main river current and when they contact each other at the downstream end of Caterpillar Island, the result would be clockwise vortices (as seen from above) which would drive the debris from the channel flow onto the beach.

Big smile!  8)
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georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #567 on: August 21, 2015, 01:25:00 AM »
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Post #1213 from Tina Bar thread on this forum by Bruce Smith....

Quote
As far as I know, I am the only Coop guy to go swimming at T-Bar, as it was 105 degrees when I was there. Water was delightful, but the current was amazingly strong. Scary, even. Very bizarre to be swimming and see a freighter go by. At the Frenchman's Bar County Park, thousands of folks go swimming in the Columbia, and the lifeguards patrol the swimming area on jet skis. Interesting.

Thats the one I remember ...
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #568 on: August 24, 2015, 10:22:54 PM »
I believe it's possible they might have the butts, but keep in mind that they have lost other key items as well.

The flight data is nowhere to be found.
No pictures of the money in the bag.
No pics of the chutes.
They claim they don't know who made the flight path map.
Did anyone ever hear anything about what was found on the seat. they removed it?
Different stories surrounding the money find. (FBI & Ingram's)


They might be good at what they do in certain parts of the FBI, but filing seems to be an issue with them, or keeping tabs on things.

They turned over the case from Alcatraz to the Marshal's in the late 70's, but took 2 years to transfer all the files. then the bombshell of the Marshal finding the reports of a stolen car, and a raft on Angle Island buried in the files? the newspapers wrote for years that no crimes occurred the following day? did they cover it up so the prison would continue to be full proof, or was it an over site? the Cooper case is far from the only nightmare they have encountered....

« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 10:23:48 PM by Shutter »
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #569 on: August 26, 2015, 01:01:09 PM »
I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?
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