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Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 838333 times)

Offline 73blazer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3300 on: May 06, 2022, 09:59:10 AM »
So why would the stairs not have been locked? The handle is two positions down and up. If you put it in the down position it should lock. So you must be saying the hydraulics are not enough to push the stairs all the way down into a locked position during flight. There's a video by MentourPilot on youboob and he explains some 727 mechanics used the stairs as an anti tipping device during certain loading operations or when messing with stuff on the tail. SO in a locked position they shouldn't move. He also says the pilots pre-flight use to include ensuring the arms on the stairs were all the way down and locked kinda implying sometimes they didn't lock even on the ground so I suppose getting to a locked position may not be easy to attain during flight, but Boeing says stairs can be "deployed" up to 300kts.
So your saying Anderson said only the amber stairs not up & locked light was on and NOT the green stairs down and locked? If he stated exactly which lights were on somewhere that would explain alot.
The rear cabin door is the pressure sealer, even though the plane was unpressurized I imagine some slight difference of pressure still happens and opening of this door during flight could create a pressure reading as well. I'd like to see more detail on the stairs mechanics and specs for the cylinders.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3301 on: May 06, 2022, 06:04:25 PM »
Several things.....

The 727 is not centered gravity wise when empty, yes, the stairs hold up the plane. They also use a pole when the stairs are up or inoperable. it just keeps the plane level while on the ground. reason, when the plane is empty the engines weight is greater in the back vs the front so it will tip with little weight change inside.

The stairs will not lock due to the wind load on them, or all the hijackers would of jumped from a locked position. the stairs were NEVER in the locked position. the crew would have to go to the back to retract them for landing. it just never happened.

The amber light on the engineers panel tells you the stairs are not locked. the green light tells you they are in the locked position. 305 never got a green light.

Pressure will register on the gauge, these gauges are used to pressurize the plane. they are very sensitive. you have a sealed tube, basically, any disruption will register. it's not much different than closing a door in the house and the curtains move. once air is introduced to a sealed area, disruption will occur. open the car door at 10 mph and then at 90 and watch the difference wind loads create. several thousand lbs will be pushing the stairs...

One of my trucks has a camper top on it. the actuators have a load capacity of 60 lbs. while on the highway they come down to almost level due to the wind load on them. it is what it is..
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 06:42:29 PM by Shutter »
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Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3302 on: May 06, 2022, 11:20:00 PM »
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Several things.....

The 727 is not centered gravity wise when empty, yes, the stairs hold up the plane. They also use a pole when the stairs are up or inoperable. it just keeps the plane level while on the ground. reason, when the plane is empty the engines weight is greater in the back vs the front so it will tip with little weight change inside.

The stairs will not lock due to the wind load on them, or all the hijackers would of jumped from a locked position. the stairs were NEVER in the locked position. the crew would have to go to the back to retract them for landing. it just never happened.

The amber light on the engineers panel tells you the stairs are not locked. the green light tells you they are in the locked position. 305 never got a green light.

Pressure will register on the gauge, these gauges are used to pressurize the plane. they are very sensitive. you have a sealed tube, basically, any disruption will register. it's not much different than closing a door in the house and the curtains move. once air is introduced to a sealed area, disruption will occur. open the car door at 10 mph and then at 90 and watch the difference wind loads create. several thousand lbs will be pushing the stairs...

One of my trucks has a camper top on it. the actuators have a load capacity of 60 lbs. while on the highway they come down to almost level due to the wind load on them. it is what it is..

well put, comprehensive . . . . .
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Offline JAG

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3303 on: May 07, 2022, 06:58:28 AM »
During the part of the sled test where one of the testers walked down the stairs and stood there, was it confirmed that the pressure gauge in the cockpit fluctuated? 
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Offline TechnicalTim

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3304 on: June 24, 2022, 01:39:56 PM »
I have a query regarding the 'instructions' that Tina offered to Cooper regarding the parachutes.
 Is there any concrete evidence available as to what these instructions were ?
 Are they general 'How to use a chute'. Or are they specific details that go with the modified Cossey chute?
In the latter case, it can only be Hayden who supplied them, as he's the only one that would know about the modified chute at that time. In which case he would be very familiar with them, as he's the one that would need to know being the chute user, unless of course he dumps it on his passenger in an emergency and says "Read these before you jump".
So far i've seen nothing that mentions Hayden saying anything about this, surely he would have mentioned it?
And where is that note, what happened to it?.
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3305 on: June 24, 2022, 10:56:05 PM »
Yo, TT, sounds like your mind is spinning into a tizzy over the parachutes.

As far as I know, there were no modified chutes. That is an artifact of the Cossey narrative, which I believe has been proven to be false in its entirety. I think the two found packing cards - one on 305 that was retrieved in Reno, and the second that was photographed by yours truly when I interviewed Norman in 2011 - establish that Hayden supplied two Pioneer/Steinthal 26-foot conical canopies. Hence, everything from Coss is canard.

As for the informational piece of paper that is reported, I have no idea where it is.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3306 on: June 25, 2022, 01:59:54 PM »
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Yo, TT, sounds like your mind is spinning into a tizzy over the parachutes.

As far as I know, there were no modified chutes. That is an artifact of the Cossey narrative, which I believe has been proven to be false in its entirety. I think the two found packing cards - one on 305 that was retrieved in Reno, and the second that was photographed by yours truly when I interviewed Norman in 2011 - establish that Hayden supplied two Pioneer/Steinthal 26-foot conical canopies. Hence, everything from Coss is canard.

As for the informational piece of paper that is reported, I have no idea where it is.

Let me add a couple of things to Bruce's comments. 

Hayden reportedly told Bruce that the two backpack parachutes that he provided in the Cooper hijacking were identical.  However, the Hayden backpack that was found on the airliner at Reno does not have a 26-foot conical canopy.  The canopy in that backpack is too bulky to be a 26-foot conical and the harness, container, and pilot chute are definitely not those that are normally associated with the 26-foot conical.  It is undoubtedly a 28-foot canopy in that backpack and in all probability in the backpack that Cooper used.

Bruce has definitely put Cossey on the right peg.  Everything Cossey has said is bullshit.  Ignore him. 
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Offline TechnicalTim

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3307 on: June 25, 2022, 04:44:38 PM »
Thanks guys. I must admit i'm struggling to see how within 24hrs Cossey seemed to know everything about the chutes, when he wasn't the one that supplied them.
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3308 on: June 25, 2022, 09:05:05 PM »
Coss was a sly fox...
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3309 on: August 20, 2022, 07:17:50 PM »
Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:

What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?

The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.

The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm

Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.

If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an  and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.

 If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.

This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.

Fact check me, my times might be wrong.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3310 on: August 21, 2022, 12:46:24 AM »
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:

What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?

The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.

The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm

Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.

If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an  and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.

 If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.

This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.

Fact check me, my times might be wrong.

Here is an additional assumption.  Assume that the airliner could climb to 10,000 feet as fast as it normally would and it would be at that altitude in 5 to 10 minutes after takeoff.

Another fact to consider.  With sunset at 4:33 PM or so, with low cloud layers plus an overcast at about 5000 feet, and if it was raining on the airliner in the Seattle area at that time there would be more clouds above the airliner, then it would be essentially pitch black where the airliner was flying.  The only illumination exterior to the airliner would be from the glow of the Seattle area lights through the clouds and overcast below the airliner.  And as the airliner moved out of the Seattle area and over the mountains and forests, there would not be any illumination below the airliner.

Even if Cooper jumped at 5:30 PM, everything below him would be dark.   
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Offline JAG

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3311 on: August 21, 2022, 08:27:12 AM »
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:

What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?

The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.

The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm

Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.

If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an  and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.

 If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.

This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.

Fact check me, my times might be wrong.

Here is an additional assumption.  Assume that the airliner could climb to 10,000 feet as fast as it normally would and it would be at that altitude in 5 to 10 minutes after takeoff.

Another fact to consider.  With sunset at 4:33 PM or so, with low cloud layers plus an overcast at about 5000 feet, and if it was raining on the airliner in the Seattle area at that time there would be more clouds above the airliner, then it would be essentially pitch black where the airliner was flying.  The only illumination exterior to the airliner would be from the glow of the Seattle area lights through the clouds and overcast below the airliner.  And as the airliner moved out of the Seattle area and over the mountains and forests, there would not be any illumination below the airliner.

Even if Cooper jumped at 5:30 PM, everything below him would be dark.

It does not appear that jumping with any natural light was ever part of Cooper's plan.  That says something, which of course is open to all of our objective and subjective speculations.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3312 on: August 21, 2022, 03:36:39 PM »
Even when the sun sets, there is still some light remaining. It doesn't instantly get dark. Check the time for sunset in your area and see how long afterward it gets fully dark.

That said, R99 is correct that the clouds and rain would certainly block the light to a degree and make visibility more difficult.
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3313 on: September 17, 2022, 08:09:52 AM »
          Not sure where to pose this question? Maybe the flight path thread?   Has there been any discussion, in the past, concerning the Sage radar system?  How much do we know about it?  Could the elevation of flight 305  have possibly been a problem for the system?  Any reference to resource material for the Sage system would be appreciated.
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Offline Jay Ritchie

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3314 on: September 19, 2022, 08:56:05 AM »
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:

What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?

A fascinating thought process. Should we consider 'hoped for' as opposed to anticipated? He seemed reasonably comfortable with changes in the plan and may well have anticipated a number of possible changes to the plan as things progressed.

Would there have been any issues jumping out of an ascending aircraft? If the steps had been lowered prior to take off would they have been in a locked position?
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