Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 908423 times)

Offline sailshaw

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #300 on: May 08, 2015, 10:12:59 AM »
Georger:   You are now claiming that I claim that Mr. H was in charge of the DB Cooper case. That is totally not correct Here is what I said from my post: " The Cossey chute story was what he told Ralph (as the FBI agent) but it is not true as a lot of the info the FBI was told by Cossey.".

Also, I first met Sheridan Peterson in 1961 when he stayed at my home for one month. That is ten years before Norjack and why are you trying to confuse my story? You should be working to better understand what took place. Have you read Bruce's new book yet? He quote's my information right on about the case.

About brown cosmetic contact lens: My Yacht Club friend "Jim Erickson" tells me the cosmetic lens were available in hard contact form and not very expensive in 1971. Also, a pair of home made cosmetic lens could also have been made by using a pair of clear hard contacts, sprayed with brown model airplane lacquer (masking off a small round place to see through). Jim's father started Erickson Lab and was in business before Norjack and he knows the business. He says soft lens were just becoming popular at that time and the Lab could provide even a tinted (to make finding s lost lens easier) lens, so brown hard lens would have been used in those days to make cosmetic lens. 

Attached is the best photo I have of Sheridan from the Boeing News file working photo which was used to make the add for the  new Boeing Skydiving Club.

Bob Sailshaw
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #301 on: May 08, 2015, 02:28:51 PM »
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Georger:   You are now claiming that I claim that Mr. H was in charge of the DB Cooper case. That is totally not correct Here is what I said from my post: " The Cossey chute story was what he told Ralph (as the FBI agent) but it is not true as a lot of the info the FBI was told by Cossey.".

Bob Sailshaw

Ive never said any such thing. My reference is not to you. My reference is to Jerry Thomas who basically claims he knows more about NORJAK than any living human! Thomas basically claims H was in charge of NORJAK, H had/has info about NORJAK that nobody else has/had,  that H has NORJAK files that nobody else has, that the FBI flight path map is wrong, that 305 flew a path in or near the Washougal where Cooper bailed before 305 crossed the Columbia over the Troutdale Airport (not at Portland), and on and on and on and on ....

Those are Jerry Thomas' claims, not yours. I have never said you made such claims.

Basically, Mr. Thomas is saying 'everything Cooper should go through him and nobody else because he-Thomas is the foremost expert on NORJAK', based on his friendship with retired FBI Agent Ralph Himmelsbach who once worked for the FBI and chased the hijacked jet liner in a heliocopter.

Thomas claims he has access to the FBI and FBI files that no other living human has.

Thomas claims he is an expert on all phases of the NORJAK case.

Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!

You Sailshaw need to get Jerry Thomas on your side if you ever hope to progress at all in your case for Peterson being DB Cooper. Jo Weber learned that lesson the hard way - don;t make the mistake she made!

 :)   
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 06:01:58 PM by georger »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #302 on: May 09, 2015, 10:15:16 AM »
So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #303 on: May 09, 2015, 01:50:06 PM »
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

Extensive posts on that over at DZ _ the unregulated closed Cooper thread that was hijacked by Aliens.

 :o
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #304 on: May 09, 2015, 04:57:17 PM »
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

All who jumped, survived:

1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman

No splats!

For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:

Chapter 29


Copycats



At the risk of becoming lost in the fog of conspiracy looking for evidence of group activity, we need to look more closely at the copycats if for no other reason than some in the FBI, such as Ralph Himmelsbach, consider DB Cooper to be one.
“You have to remember that Cooper was a copycat,” he told me when I visited him at his home in 2011.
Himmelsbach claimed that the first skyjacker to demand a ransom and parachute was not Cooper, but a fellow he called “Gaylord.”
However, Ralph was incorrect. The first skydiving extortionist was actually named Paul Cini, and he hijacked an Air Canada flight out of Calgary, Alberta two weeks before Cooper’s caper.
Nevertheless, Himmelsbach is spot-on with his general analysis.
“With each new skyjacking, the skyjackers improved their techniques,” Ralph said, echoing fellow FBI agent Russ Calame’s evaluation of McCoy’s effort.
Along those lines, I was surprised to hear Himmelsbach confirm Calame’s conclusion that McCoy was not home in Provo during the Cooper skyjacking, because it meant Ralph was willing to hold an opinion opposed to the current view held by the FBI.
“We did look at McCoy in the Cooper case, but he (McCoy) was in Las Vegas when the Cooper skyjacking took place,” Ralph declared.
But what was McCoy doing in Las Vegas during the Cooper hijacking? Ralph!  I
muttered quietly, but was unable to pursue because Ralph’s dinner company arrived.
I’d also like Ralph to amplify his perspective on the copycats because he is the only one I know to have stated that there were twenty Cooper-esque skyjackers in the months following Norjak. Other published accounts say a dozen or so, and I have been able to find fourteen. This haze casts a pall of mystery over the topic.
Nevertheless, most authors talk about the four primary copycats: McCoy, Robb Heady, Martin McNally, and Frederick Hahneman. All made it to the ground safely, even McNally even though he had never parachuted before, which belies the proposition that the Cooper jump was too dangerous to be successful.
But the essential question remains: were they a group? Did any of them know DB Cooper or Paul Cini? Were they coached in any manner? How did these skyjackings evolve, as Himmelsbach has observed. Was it an organic process and achieved by skyjackers merely reading newspaper accounts of previous hijackings, or were they part of somebody’s deliberate plan?
Frankly, there is not enough information available to the public to make any
 
determination on that question, and it reveals some of the limitations of open-sourced sleuthing—we just don’t have enough muscle to unearth these kinds of facts.
Nevertheless, this inquiry received a shot of adrenaline from an unexpected source: the Washington State Historical Museum in Tacoma. In 2013, they opened a major exhibit on DB Cooper and mentioned that DB Cooper had thirteen copycats. I asked the WSHM to provide me with a list of these Cooper-esque hijackers, and they gave me s few names I had never seen anywhere else.
Their primary source is the website called “Skyjacker of the Day—a Hundred Days, A Hundred Skyjackers,” a site originally developed to build interest in the June 2013 launch of the book, The Skies Belong to Us—Love and Terror in the Golden Age of Hijackings, by Brendan Koerner.


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Koener’s book is an overview of the entire skyjacking phenomena and portrays
a wonderful subtext for the DB Cooper episode. Koerner’s tome is wrapped around a lengthy narrative of the hijacking of Western Flight 701, performed by two fugitives— Roger Holder and Cathy Kerkow—and includes a juicy romance, Black Panther politics and a dicey escape to Algiers.
But one of the most intriguing aspects of Koerner’s work is showing how many skyjackings were occurring in the United States in the early 1970s—hundreds—and how they even overlapped, with multiple hijackings in one day and even involving the same airport. I was astonished to learn that one of the Cooper copycats, Robb Heady, hijacked his plane on the same day as Holder and Kerkow, and in fact Heady directed his plane to SFO just as their Western 401 was taking off for Algeria!
The following is a list of what we know about bona fide copycats—the proviso being that a Cooper copycat has to demand a ransom and use a parachute to escape.


1.  Paul Cini…    Air Canada 812…    11. 13. 71
2.  DB Cooper…   Northwest Orient 305…    11. 24. 71
3.  Everett Holt…    Northwest Orient 734…    12. 24. 71
4.  Billy Hurst, Jr.… Braniff 38…       1. 12. 72
5. Richard LaPoint… Hughes Air West 800…   1. 20. 72
6.  Richard McCoy… United 855…       4. 7. 72
7.  Stanley Spreck… Pacific Southwest 942        4. 9 72
8.  Frederick Hahneman… Eastern 175…    5. 5. 72
9.  “Lomas”…    Ecuadoriana de Aviacion…5. 22. 72
10. Robb Heady…    United 239…       6. 2. 72
11. Martin McNally… American 119…    6. 23. 72
12. Daniel Carre…    Hughes Airwest 775…    6. 30. 72
 13. Francis Goodell… Pacific Southwest 389… 7. 6. 72
14. Melvin Fisher… American 633…       7. 12. 72


Bold type indicates the skyjacker made it to the ground successfully.
The rest were apprehended by the FBI or flight crews before they could jump.


 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #305 on: May 09, 2015, 09:09:17 PM »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #306 on: May 09, 2015, 11:22:08 PM »
Geoffrey's interview on Author Talk is fantastic. I hadn't seen this one before.  Thanks.

GG is so smooth!  A real inspiration.
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #307 on: May 09, 2015, 11:43:08 PM »
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

All who jumped, survived:

1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman

No splats!

For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:

Great answer Bruce.  Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag.  I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived.  But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward.  So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #308 on: May 10, 2015, 03:34:18 AM »
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

All who jumped, survived:

1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman

No splats!

For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:

Great answer Bruce.  Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag.  I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived.  But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward.  So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?

The problem with saying Cooper should have been caught like all the others is that the lessons learned (i.e. the pressure bump) from the Cooper hijacking were used to pinpoint all the later jumpers. The lack of proper ground coverage in Cooper's case led to an overwhelming use of ground coverage and searching in the following cases (except the guy who jumped into the jungle, he later just gave himself up). The search coverage was so solid, that in McCoy's case, he was one of the men searching for himself.

(And McCoy blabbed to someone else, that never helps.)

This is all an example of the problem of induction. We can't assume that every hijacking involving a parachute will play out the same way. They are all quite different. Instead, we have to ask ourselves, probabilistically, what was Cooper's likely outcome. Parachutes, even in bad weather with inexperienced jumpers doing their deeds at night, are very effective lifesaving tools. It's difficult imagining Cooper not pulling the ripcord.
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #309 on: May 10, 2015, 03:24:05 PM »
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

All who jumped, survived:

1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman

No splats!

For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:

Great answer Bruce.  Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag.  I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived.  But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward.  So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?

The problem with saying Cooper should have been caught like all the others is that the lessons learned (i.e. the pressure bump) from the Cooper hijacking were used to pinpoint all the later jumpers. The lack of proper ground coverage in Cooper's case led to an overwhelming use of ground coverage and searching in the following cases (except the guy who jumped into the jungle, he later just gave himself up). The search coverage was so solid, that in McCoy's case, he was one of the men searching for himself.

(And McCoy blabbed to someone else, that never helps.)

This is all an example of the problem of induction. We can't assume that every hijacking involving a parachute will play out the same way. They are all quite different. Instead, we have to ask ourselves, probabilistically, what was Cooper's likely outcome. Parachutes, even in bad weather with inexperienced jumpers doing their deeds at night, are very effective lifesaving tools. It's difficult imagining Cooper not pulling the ripcord.

It might be noteworthy to ask: would the chances of Cooper's apprehension been greater had he bailed somewhere south of the Columbia River, or even closer to Seattle, vs. in the area between Seattle and the Columbia? Especially given the time of day, the cover of darkness and weather, etc. So, were the conditions of Cooper's jump somehow different than the other hijackings where people jumped (which is few!).

The conditions and the resources available to apprehend Cooper when and where he jumped, were few to nonexistent. Let's imagine Himmelsbach's miraculous attempt at spotting Cooper from a helo near Woodland would have succeeded ... what then? Could resources have been called in to surround and net Cooper that night? Or would Himmelsbach been put on the ground to try and apprehend Mr. Cooper, himself in some heroic struggle? The facts seem to be that 'nobody knew with any certainty where Cooper was or had bailed' that night. And nobody was brought in and put on the ground to search - anywhere. Not even an area was cordoned off  or cars brought in and put at strategic locations or road intersections ... looking for Cooper that night and trying to hem in into an area where resources could be committed at sunset? Cooper examined the chutes and looked at the rigging cards _ he may have also been looking for locators or chaf? Were any public alerts broadcast on any radio station ... to be on the lookout for a hijacker? No lone guy wandered into a gas station asking for directions and a ham sandwich? Some girl reports a guy walking out of the woods with a suitcase and nobody is called in to check ... but is that story true?

If he is a DOA he isn't going to leave any clues or be moving around. Depending on whose version of the Cooper story you buy into, he may not have know where in hell he was! We know the pilots and NWA and the Air Force made at attempt to identify exactly when and where he bailed. But there was a problem getting resources into that area under the prevailing conditions that night.

We are told that an SR71 was even brought in to try and spot Cooper or anything unusual that might lead to Cooper's apprehension! That is a serious resource to bring in and direct at finding one lone hijacker! That fact alone suggests a serious lack of resources in any ordinary search for Mr. Cooper and his parachute.

It makes me sometimes wonder just how close the huge investigation looking for Cooper may have come to actually finding Cooper, or some major piece of evidence, but just missed it by a hair? Such is the romance of the Cooper case.

 ;)   


   
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 03:30:23 PM by georger »
 

Offline sailshaw

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #310 on: May 10, 2015, 04:59:55 PM »
Georger:  Your comment is "It makes me sometimes wonder just how close the huge investigation looking for Cooper may have come to actually finding Cooper, or some major piece of evidence, but just missed it by a hair? Such is the romance of the Cooper case."

My answer is:  "The DNA evidence on the four letters sent to the Newspapers and under the stamps and envelope flaps when compared with what the FBI has from Sheridan Peterson will lead directly to solving the case as it would shoot down his phoney alibi about being in Nepal at the time of Norjak. That is how close the FBI were to solving the case and now they are on HOLD or STAND DOWN and will never solve it. It would not cost much to get the DNA from the letters and compare with Sheridan's."  What they got from the tie is useless and they know it.

Bob Saillshaw
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #311 on: May 10, 2015, 05:43:22 PM »
Remember, the FBI gave DB Cooper a 12-hour head start.  He jumped at 8:13 pm on Wednesday night and the feds didn't send folks out until the next morning. First light was about 7 am.

What happened to the Cowboys?

As Georger has mentioned, there were no road blocks, neighborhood searches or warnings. Thursday morning saw about 25 local cops and volunteers look for Coop in over 20 square miles of identified LZ. The feds stayed back in Woodland awaiting developments.

Feds also commandeered six helos - from timber companies and the Oregon NAtional Guard. Plus Himms in his fixed-wing. But it was rainy, cloudy and foggy. Then the aerial search was called off for Friday and Saturday due to weather. Then resumed on Sunday.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #312 on: May 10, 2015, 05:52:52 PM »
Immediate capture is not a given, not even for the copycatters.

McNally was in local police custody that night, but released.  He was then arrested three days later after being betrayed by a buddy in Michigan, who told the cops who, what, where and when.

Robb was surrounded by 150 local cops that night.

Hahnemann jumped who knows where in the jungle, and then turned himself in 30 days later.

McCoy had an estimated 200 cops looking for him in the scrub around Provo and they still missed him.

LaPoint was a sitting duck because he was in the middle of a snow-covered field with an orange parachute. Plus the chaff in the chute alerted the FAA fixed wing circling the area
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #313 on: May 10, 2015, 05:55:38 PM »
Note to Georger:

The image of Himms mud-wrestlin' with Danny Boy in the boonies is priceless. Let's develop that scenario!
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #314 on: May 10, 2015, 05:58:45 PM »
What does the SR 71 tell us?

Good question, G. To me, it is a "Hail Mary" pass designed primarily for public relations. Also, the typical weather of the PNW and its constant cloud cover shows the limitations of even the most sophisticated equipment. Now, I suppose, we have thermal imaging down to an exact science, so to speak....