Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 838984 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2835 on: January 05, 2021, 06:05:11 PM »
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Robert, since you cite Alice seeing Tina bringing the meals and maps onboard and Alice left shortly after the money came onboard and before the parachutes, I deduced you saying that the meals and maps came onboard before the money and chutes.

No? Are you saying something else?

It is my understanding that Alice and Flo left after the money came onboard and the passengers deplaned. Not sure why they didn't hitch a ride on the bus, as I hear they got a ride with a fuel truck - I assume the "air lock" one, after it got bumped and the second one was pulling in.

Bruce, what is your source for claiming the order of the parachutes, money, and the box of meals and maps coming onboard?  Frankly, I do not remember ever seeing such information anywhere.

There were actually three fuel trucks involved.  It is highly unlikely that Flo and Alice would deplane before the passengers and what is the source of your claim that they road in a fuel truck?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2836 on: January 05, 2021, 10:19:19 PM »
Whew. Lots of confusion here.

Here is what I know, or understand to be true:

1. Four fuel trucks were eventually summoned to Flight 305. The first was the "vapor-lock" truck. The second came in when Rataczak "laid down the law" to the FBI, but it developed legitimate problems. The third came in shortly thereafter but had too little fuel onboard to finish the job. Hence the fourth truck was summoned. I got this originally from GG and Bill Rataczak. Now, I think there are 302s confirming this scenario.

2. Yes, I don't believe that Alice and Flo left before the passengers. It is my understanding that they left 305 shortly after the passengers deplaned.

3. It is my further understanding that the passengers left after the money came onboard.

4. After the passengers and Alice and Flo left, Tina made three trips to get the four parachutes. This scenario comes from the crew debriefs.

5. As for when the meals and maps came onboard, I do not know, which is why I was asking. You're the first person I know, Robert, to say that Tina fetched them, as per Alice's commentary, which suggests that Alice was still onboard 305 when the meals and maps came on.

6. The story of Alice and Flo hitching a ride aboard a fuel truck comes from the statements made here on the Forum, attributed to one of the driver's claim made on Seattle TV, if I recall. Maybe Shutter can clarify this a bit. I'll dig in my notes when the sun comes up. They're outside in weather-proof totes. Not sure if the BBC docu filmed them much - they seemed to have filmed EVERYTHING else in my rustic abode...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 10:19:39 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2837 on: January 06, 2021, 04:47:47 AM »
A colleague who watched the BBC production asked me if I knew that “eccentric” guy living off grid who “knows all about the case.”

“That’s my friend Bruce” I replied.

He then asked me if Bruce knew more about the case than I did.

“Yeah, he does”, I said, losing some stature in my admission.

I was then tempted to take a cheap shot at Bruce’s remote viewing, but I didn’t.

377

 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2838 on: January 07, 2021, 01:02:02 AM »
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Whew. Lots of confusion here.

Here is what I know, or understand to be true:

1. Four fuel trucks were eventually summoned to Flight 305. The first was the "vapor-lock" truck. The second came in when Rataczak "laid down the law" to the FBI, but it developed legitimate problems. The third came in shortly thereafter but had too little fuel onboard to finish the job. Hence the fourth truck was summoned. I got this originally from GG and Bill Rataczak. Now, I think there are 302s confirming this scenario.

2. Yes, I don't believe that Alice and Flo left before the passengers. It is my understanding that they left 305 shortly after the passengers deplaned.

3. It is my further understanding that the passengers left after the money came onboard.

4. After the passengers and Alice and Flo left, Tina made three trips to get the four parachutes. This scenario comes from the crew debriefs.

5. As for when the meals and maps came onboard, I do not know, which is why I was asking. You're the first person I know, Robert, to say that Tina fetched them, as per Alice's commentary, which suggests that Alice was still onboard 305 when the meals and maps came on.

6. The story of Alice and Flo hitching a ride aboard a fuel truck comes from the statements made here on the Forum, attributed to one of the driver's claim made on Seattle TV, if I recall. Maybe Shutter can clarify this a bit. I'll dig in my notes when the sun comes up. They're outside in weather-proof totes. Not sure if the BBC docu filmed them much - they seemed to have filmed EVERYTHING else in my rustic abode...

Bruce, let me say again that there is no evidence that anyone other than Tina brought anything onboard the airliner while it was on the ground at SEATAC.

FlyJack has posted on DropZone page 175 (I think it is) of the ground communication transcripts at SEATAC and it plainly states that Flo and Alice were in the "car" which would be the one Al Lee and the Seattle detective used to carry the parachutes, money, maps and meals out to the aircraft.  So you can forget about them riding in a fuel truck.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2839 on: January 07, 2021, 06:27:34 AM »
I believe you are talking about the video of the fuel truck owner, I don't have it at the moment but was recently posted by FJ. you can't always trust someone else speaking for you. the original statement from Flo was all 3 of them were with Cooper after the passengers left. Flo said Cooper told Tina to get the chutes. people like to put themselves into things. he also claims to have seen Cooper looking out the window. not a lot of people know enough to question things said like this with stories decades old. he could of seen Cooper, I don't know. not wise to be looking out the window. Did they even have snipers in place. they did with McCoy.

The witness statements can be troubling. Flo's statement says Cooper put the sun glasses on while putting on the back chute.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 07:06:02 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2840 on: January 08, 2021, 06:37:26 PM »
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A colleague who watched the BBC production asked me if I knew that “eccentric” guy living off grid who “knows all about the case.”

“That’s my friend Bruce” I replied.

He then asked me if Bruce knew more about the case than I did.

“Yeah, he does”, I said, losing some stature in my admission.

I was then tempted to take a cheap shot at Bruce’s remote viewing, but I didn’t.

377

Best chuckle of the day, so far, Three. Thanks.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2841 on: January 08, 2021, 06:39:47 PM »
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Whew. Lots of confusion here.

Here is what I know, or understand to be true:

1. Four fuel trucks were eventually summoned to Flight 305. The first was the "vapor-lock" truck. The second came in when Rataczak "laid down the law" to the FBI, but it developed legitimate problems. The third came in shortly thereafter but had too little fuel onboard to finish the job. Hence the fourth truck was summoned. I got this originally from GG and Bill Rataczak. Now, I think there are 302s confirming this scenario.

2. Yes, I don't believe that Alice and Flo left before the passengers. It is my understanding that they left 305 shortly after the passengers deplaned.

3. It is my further understanding that the passengers left after the money came onboard.

4. After the passengers and Alice and Flo left, Tina made three trips to get the four parachutes. This scenario comes from the crew debriefs.

5. As for when the meals and maps came onboard, I do not know, which is why I was asking. You're the first person I know, Robert, to say that Tina fetched them, as per Alice's commentary, which suggests that Alice was still onboard 305 when the meals and maps came on.

6. The story of Alice and Flo hitching a ride aboard a fuel truck comes from the statements made here on the Forum, attributed to one of the driver's claim made on Seattle TV, if I recall. Maybe Shutter can clarify this a bit. I'll dig in my notes when the sun comes up. They're outside in weather-proof totes. Not sure if the BBC docu filmed them much - they seemed to have filmed EVERYTHING else in my rustic abode...

Bruce, let me say again that there is no evidence that anyone other than Tina brought anything onboard the airliner while it was on the ground at SEATAC.

FlyJack has posted on DropZone page 175 (I think it is) of the ground communication transcripts at SEATAC and it plainly states that Flo and Alice were in the "car" which would be the one Al Lee and the Seattle detective used to carry the parachutes, money, maps and meals out to the aircraft.  So you can forget about them riding in a fuel truck.

But - it's SO HARD to forget the image of Alice and Flo riding in a fuel truck... smile.

Again, it's another report that is at odds with other reports.

Who knew that truth could be so slippery.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 06:40:12 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2842 on: January 08, 2021, 09:24:41 PM »
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Whew. Lots of confusion here.

Here is what I know, or understand to be true:

1. Four fuel trucks were eventually summoned to Flight 305. The first was the "vapor-lock" truck. The second came in when Rataczak "laid down the law" to the FBI, but it developed legitimate problems. The third came in shortly thereafter but had too little fuel onboard to finish the job. Hence the fourth truck was summoned. I got this originally from GG and Bill Rataczak. Now, I think there are 302s confirming this scenario.

2. Yes, I don't believe that Alice and Flo left before the passengers. It is my understanding that they left 305 shortly after the passengers deplaned.

3. It is my further understanding that the passengers left after the money came onboard.

4. After the passengers and Alice and Flo left, Tina made three trips to get the four parachutes. This scenario comes from the crew debriefs.

5. As for when the meals and maps came onboard, I do not know, which is why I was asking. You're the first person I know, Robert, to say that Tina fetched them, as per Alice's commentary, which suggests that Alice was still onboard 305 when the meals and maps came on.

6. The story of Alice and Flo hitching a ride aboard a fuel truck comes from the statements made here on the Forum, attributed to one of the driver's claim made on Seattle TV, if I recall. Maybe Shutter can clarify this a bit. I'll dig in my notes when the sun comes up. They're outside in weather-proof totes. Not sure if the BBC docu filmed them much - they seemed to have filmed EVERYTHING else in my rustic abode...

Bruce, let me say again that there is no evidence that anyone other than Tina brought anything onboard the airliner while it was on the ground at SEATAC.

FlyJack has posted on DropZone page 175 (I think it is) of the ground communication transcripts at SEATAC and it plainly states that Flo and Alice were in the "car" which would be the one Al Lee and the Seattle detective used to carry the parachutes, money, maps and meals out to the aircraft.  So you can forget about them riding in a fuel truck.

But - it's SO HARD to forget the image of Alice and Flo riding in a fuel truck... smile.

Again, it's another report that is at odds with other reports.

Who knew that truth could be so slippery.

Bruce, there is nothing slippery about this.  Al Lee said they were in his car.  He should know.  All other claims are nonsense.

Just because some nut case claims otherwise, doesn't mean that you have to repeat it or put it in your book.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2843 on: January 09, 2021, 04:09:48 AM »
So, what I'm gathering from your comments, Robert, is the following scenario:

1. The money comes onboard 305 - the who, how, and where we'll leave for another day to discuss.

2. Passengers leave 305. One tries to get back on and Rataczak radios Al Lee to secure the steps.

3. The passengers huddle at the foot of the stairs waiting for the bus, and an FBI appears from somewhere - maybe "John" from Larry Finegold's commentary, or maybe John Detlor, and he tells the passengers that they have been hijacked.

4. The bus comes for the passengers. The FBI agent standing with the passengers gets on the bus with them, or there are other FBI agents arriving and a couple get on the bus. At least one has a roll-call list - that is currently lost or unavailable to the public. But that agent and that list definitively know that Cooper, D. is the skyjacker.

5. Owen McKenna, the Homicide Decretive from the Seattle PD is no longer around, apparently, or has no further role, or somehow just doesn't do anything important enough to get into anybody's report.

6. Al Lee, who was riding with McKenna, is in a car, apparently, with the four chutes.

7. Alice and Flo join Lee in the car, waiting for a ride to the terminal. For some reason they do not assist Tina in transporting the four chutes onto the plane.

8. Tina makes three trips to the car to ferry the chutes to Cooper.

9. Al Lee says Tina looks emotionally shaken and slow to respond verbally to his inquiries. Alice and Flo apparently make no overtures to Tina, nor attempt to assist her.

10. When all the chutes are aboard 305, Al Lee is free to leave. He finally gives Alice and Flo a ride to the terminal. Presumably Owen McKenna is also in the car and rides to the terminal with them.

11. The FAA agent that is mentioned in the transcripts is apparently left to fend for himself.

12. The fuel truck driver, #1, leaves after his "vapor lock" caper fails. He drives off alone with his thoughts and fantasies, later realized in TV interviews and a certain newspaper reporter's cache of information.

Is this about it, Robert?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 04:13:47 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline EU

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2844 on: January 09, 2021, 08:32:35 AM »
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So, what I'm gathering from your comments, Robert, is the following scenario:

1. The money comes onboard 305 - the who, how, and where we'll leave for another day to discuss.

2. Passengers leave 305. One tries to get back on and Rataczak radios Al Lee to secure the steps.

3. The passengers huddle at the foot of the stairs waiting for the bus, and an FBI appears from somewhere - maybe "John" from Larry Finegold's commentary, or maybe John Detlor, and he tells the passengers that they have been hijacked.

4. The bus comes for the passengers. The FBI agent standing with the passengers gets on the bus with them, or there are other FBI agents arriving and a couple get on the bus. At least one has a roll-call list - that is currently lost or unavailable to the public. But that agent and that list definitively know that Cooper, D. is the skyjacker.

5. Owen McKenna, the Homicide Decretive from the Seattle PD is no longer around, apparently, or has no further role, or somehow just doesn't do anything important enough to get into anybody's report.

6. Al Lee, who was riding with McKenna, is in a car, apparently, with the four chutes.

7. Alice and Flo join Lee in the car, waiting for a ride to the terminal. For some reason they do not assist Tina in transporting the four chutes onto the plane.

8. Tina makes three trips to the car to ferry the chutes to Cooper.

9. Al Lee says Tina looks emotionally shaken and slow to respond verbally to his inquiries. Alice and Flo apparently make no overtures to Tina, nor attempt to assist her.

10. When all the chutes are aboard 305, Al Lee is free to leave. He finally gives Alice and Flo a ride to the terminal. Presumably Owen McKenna is also in the car and rides to the terminal with them.

11. The FAA agent that is mentioned in the transcripts is apparently left to fend for himself.

12. The fuel truck driver, #1, leaves after his "vapor lock" caper fails. He drives off alone with his thoughts and fantasies, later realized in TV interviews and a certain newspaper reporter's cache of information.

Is this about it, Robert?

Bruce, I believe that the parachutes were on the jet before Alice and Flo left. Remember, Rat was trying to encourage Alice and Flo to simply leave the jet while Tina was outside collecting stuff. However, Tina finished up and the opportunity did not present itself again for the flight crew (stews and all) to bail.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2845 on: January 09, 2021, 11:05:43 AM »
It's hard to say. Rat explains in a video that during the last trip out with Tina they could of escaped leaving Cooper alone. Flo states all of them were together when Cooper told Tina to get the chutes. Flo states seeing him put the back chute on. then they left the plane..Alice made a comment with the open chute..they all make similar statements..
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 11:15:59 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2846 on: January 09, 2021, 11:27:24 AM »
Things do get mixed up in events like these. I just watched a documentary about Lynyrd Skynyrd and the plane crash. lots of confusion with what happened. the drummer made his way out of the plane to go and find help. he found a farmer who had a gun he started walking towards him and the farmer told him to stop but he tripped while walking towards him and the farmer shot him in the arm. the drummer had blood all over him so the farmer didn't know what was going on. it was night time and didn't realize a plane crashed until he told him. he ended up helping him and going back to the crash. that was the third plane crash the drummer was involved in and survived!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 11:29:07 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2847 on: January 09, 2021, 05:16:27 PM »
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So, what I'm gathering from your comments, Robert, is the following scenario:

1. The money comes onboard 305 - the who, how, and where we'll leave for another day to discuss.

2. Passengers leave 305. One tries to get back on and Rataczak radios Al Lee to secure the steps.

3. The passengers huddle at the foot of the stairs waiting for the bus, and an FBI appears from somewhere - maybe "John" from Larry Finegold's commentary, or maybe John Detlor, and he tells the passengers that they have been hijacked.

4. The bus comes for the passengers. The FBI agent standing with the passengers gets on the bus with them, or there are other FBI agents arriving and a couple get on the bus. At least one has a roll-call list - that is currently lost or unavailable to the public. But that agent and that list definitively know that Cooper, D. is the skyjacker.

5. Owen McKenna, the Homicide Decretive from the Seattle PD is no longer around, apparently, or has no further role, or somehow just doesn't do anything important enough to get into anybody's report.

6. Al Lee, who was riding with McKenna, is in a car, apparently, with the four chutes.

7. Alice and Flo join Lee in the car, waiting for a ride to the terminal. For some reason they do not assist Tina in transporting the four chutes onto the plane.

8. Tina makes three trips to the car to ferry the chutes to Cooper.

9. Al Lee says Tina looks emotionally shaken and slow to respond verbally to his inquiries. Alice and Flo apparently make no overtures to Tina, nor attempt to assist her.

10. When all the chutes are aboard 305, Al Lee is free to leave. He finally gives Alice and Flo a ride to the terminal. Presumably Owen McKenna is also in the car and rides to the terminal with them.

11. The FAA agent that is mentioned in the transcripts is apparently left to fend for himself.

12. The fuel truck driver, #1, leaves after his "vapor lock" caper fails. He drives off alone with his thoughts and fantasies, later realized in TV interviews and a certain newspaper reporter's cache of information.

Is this about it, Robert?

Bruce, I believe that the parachutes were on the jet before Alice and Flo left. Remember, Rat was trying to encourage Alice and Flo to simply leave the jet while Tina was outside collecting stuff. However, Tina finished up and the opportunity did not present itself again for the flight crew (stews and all) to bail.

Looks like there is more to sort out here. This kind of discussion is the true value of this forum.
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2848 on: January 09, 2021, 05:19:58 PM »
There's another conundrum:

If Flo and Alice are still on the plane as Tina is bringing the chutes onboard, why didn't they help?

Further, if all the chutes and money are onboard before Alice and Flo left the plane, did Al Lee and whomever (McKenna, John, FAA Guy, all of the above....) wait in the car to give them a ride?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2849 on: January 09, 2021, 05:32:34 PM »
Quote
If Flo and Alice are still on the plane as Tina is bringing the chutes onboard, why didn't they help?

Cooper told Tina to do the job. it's about control. It wouldn't benefit Cooper to have multiple people coming and going. that's usually a standard when you see a hostage situation not to let others run the show.