Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 774169 times)

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #270 on: May 04, 2015, 12:50:46 PM »
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:

1.  Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?

2.  If so, how long will it float under the above conditions?  It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.   

That's a great question.  I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them.  The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type.  It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.

We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.

And the money bag itself was probably buoyant for a short time.  It was supposedly made out of heavy canvas, tightly bound by Cooper, and had a total weight of less than 25 pounds. 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #271 on: May 04, 2015, 04:47:51 PM »
Wouldn't it be something if Coop and the money ended up in the Pacific Gyre.

Off to Midway!  Inspect that debris!!!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #272 on: May 04, 2015, 06:54:29 PM »
They can disappear quickly in the river....

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Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #273 on: May 05, 2015, 09:03:07 PM »
The thing that keeps slipping my mind is the Cooper suspect probably lost his shoes upon exiting flight 305.  So while the "survived the jump" vs. "died jumping" debate rages, the question remains, if the Cooper suspect survived the jump, how did he escape while merely wearing socks in the wilderness on a cold, wet night?
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #274 on: May 05, 2015, 09:18:25 PM »
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The thing that keeps slipping my mind is the Cooper suspect probably lost his shoes upon exiting flight 305.  So while the "survived the jump" vs. "died jumping" debate rages, the question remains, if the Cooper suspect survived the jump, how did he escape while merely wearing socks in the wilderness on a cold, wet night?


Has anyone shown what type of "loafers" he actually was thought to have on? I've heard people speculate, but has anyone nailed down what they thought he wore,other than the descriptions from Flo & Tina?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #275 on: May 05, 2015, 09:20:22 PM »
My assessment of the jump and footwear is this:

There are three basic points of view that are expressed by Cooper aficionados:

1. Those folks who view Cooper as somebody like themselves. They say, I would have died if I jumped without jump boots, so Cooper must have died. Jerry Thomas is the leading advocate for this perspective.

2. The journalistic point of view, which holds that most skydivers feel that Cooper could have made the jump successfully because they know of many instances in their skydiving careers where people have jumped successfully naked, in flip-flops, sandals, loafers, sneakers, in the snow, in the rain, into the jungle, into thick forests. Therefore, footwear is not an issue.

3. The third group doesn't like #2 for a variety of personal reasons, such as they know of a skydiver who thinks Cooper was a whuffo and died in the jump, or don't want Cooper to have succeeded because they want to support other agendas, such as the FBI would never lie to them.

There are many facets of Norjak that subscribe to these dynamics, and you can substitute shoes of any number of aspects of the skyjacking and get the same type of answers. Such as: Cooper was underdressed, it was too cold, the wind chill was too severe, he picked the wrong chute, etc.

Bottom Line: Why are the shoes an issue for you?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 09:21:56 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #276 on: May 05, 2015, 09:32:10 PM »
Another way to frame this discussion is:

Why do you think Richard LaPoint made it to the ground successfully? Assess that jump and you have a lot of answers for the Cooper jump.

Here are some possibilities:

1. Luck?
2. Total Dumb Luck
3. Divine Intervention.
4. Cowboy boots are the perfect footwear to wear for a jump - see he had boots!!!
5. The snow cushioned his impact.
6. It was so cold he never felt the impact of hitting the ground.
7. He was wishing so hard that he had a sweater or a coat that he forgot to worry about hitting the ground.
8. He was PTSD from Vietnam anyway, so go figure.
9. He was on drugs, and oxycodone will let you do anything.
10. Jumping out of a 727 in Colorado in January is ideal country and clime for a skydive - if you're wearing cowboy clothes - so what's the problem? Cowboys are bullet-proof, at least in Colorado, didn't you know?
11. He was so excited about making a quick 50 grand and dreaming of Hawaii that he didn't sweat it, which proves the mind-over-matter theory of existence.
12. The way the flight attendant looked at him when she handed over the money made him forget ALL of his problems... (see #11.)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 09:33:44 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #277 on: May 05, 2015, 09:37:32 PM »
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Bottom Line: Why are the shoes an issue for you?

Remote view yourself walking through the woods while wearing only socks on your feet.  It's somewhere around 40 degrees and wet out.  Are you making good time? 
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #278 on: May 05, 2015, 09:39:50 PM »
Quote
1. Those folks who view Cooper as somebody like themselves. They say, I would have died if I jumped without jump boots, so Cooper must have died. Jerry Thomas is the leading advocate for this perspective.

2. The journalistic point of view, which holds that most skydivers feel that Cooper could have made the jump successfully because they know of many instances in their skydiving careers where people have jumped successfully naked, in flip-flops, sandals, loafers, sneakers, in the snow, in the rain, into the jungle, into thick forests. Therefore, footwear is not an issue.

3. The third group doesn't like #2 for a variety of personal reasons, such as they know of a skydiver who thinks Cooper was a whuffo and died in the jump, or don't want Cooper to have succeeded because they want to support other agendas, such as the FBI would never lie to them.


I don't agree that #1 would seal the deal, but it sure didn't help if he survived.

#2 could have a lot of bad points as well. we are speculating he could easily do this simply because others have. I know of a MMA fighter who use to train in the desert all the time, but he ended up dead out there. isn't it speculation to state he was an avid jumper? if he did know the reserve was a dummy, how would he have known nothing was wrong with the rest of the gear?

I think his survival probably would depend on where he landed, but obviously nobody has that answer. was he close to a road, or shelter etc.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #279 on: May 05, 2015, 10:56:35 PM »
Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #280 on: May 05, 2015, 11:16:44 PM »
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Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
Good point.  After my feet spend the winter in warm socks and boots, the first few times I go barefoot, I can barely walk on the driveway.  After a week, the bottoms of my feet toughen up and I can walk over all kinds of crap (sticks, gravel).  Numb feet because of cold might sound like a blessing at first, but walking through the woods, even on a path (if you can find one in the dark) would become quite treacherous and I tend to think injury would be imminent. 

"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #281 on: May 06, 2015, 12:27:08 AM »
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Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
Good point.  After my feet spend the winter in warm socks and boots, the first few times I go barefoot, I can barely walk on the driveway.  After a week, the bottoms of my feet toughen up and I can walk over all kinds of crap (sticks, gravel).  Numb feet because of cold might sound like a blessing at first, but walking through the woods, even on a path (if you can find one in the dark) would become quite treacherous and I tend to think injury would be imminent.

Yeah, his best chance, assuming no shoes, would be to stay put for the night (wrapped in the parachute, assuming it wasn't stuck up a tree) and to make some kind of improvised foot wrapping with the stuff he had on him in the morning. Tough situation, and good luck hitchhiking with shoes made of parachute.

I know I'm generally on the "Cooper made it" side, but even so, it woulda been a heluva survival challenge.

 

Offline Jerry Thomas

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #282 on: May 06, 2015, 12:51:16 AM »
REF: Loss of shoes by the hijacker. Bottom line is the terrain in the area that I believe cooper would have landed would have kept him from making much headway in getting out of the area. He would have had a hard landing and would have injured his feet. If any of you have the opportunity to visit the area you will quickly understand why.Remember even McCoy was injured during his jump with a familiar chute and he landed in the desert. Cooper wasn't even familiar with the chute he chose to use it was modified by Cossey  and was very difficult to deploy. My opinion is still the same Cooper never got the chute opened.  Jerry
 

Offline sailshaw

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #283 on: May 06, 2015, 10:30:06 AM »
Jerry Thomas    You bring up the phony story that DB used the chute that was modified by Cossey. That is totally false as DB got the two chutes that were provided by Norm Hayden (his two acrobatic safety chutes). That phoney story came from Cossey who I think was trying to throw the FBI off as he could have been part of the crime (one of the ground men). Cossey never got the story right on the chutes and continued to think he provided the two "back chutes".

On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper. Another note is that two Ace Bandages each wrapped around a loafer wold have held his shoes on and strengthen his ankles per Allan McCarther the Pres of the Boeing Skydiving Club that Peterson started.

Bob Sailshaw
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georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #284 on: May 06, 2015, 03:44:07 PM »
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Jerry Thomas    You bring up the phony story that DB used the chute that was modified by Cossey. That is totally false as DB got the two chutes that were provided by Norm Hayden (his two acrobatic safety chutes). That phoney story came from Cossey who I think was trying to throw the FBI off as he could have been part of the crime (one of the ground men). Cossey never got the story right on the chutes and continued to think he provided the two "back chutes".

On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper. Another note is that two Ace Bandages each wrapped around a loafer wold have held his shoes on and strengthen his ankles per Allan McCarther the Pres of the Boeing Skydiving Club that Peterson started.

Bob Sailshaw
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 ;D  Your photos are too dark to see anything. Here.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 03:44:57 PM by georger »