Author Topic: General Questions About The Case (Read 838399 times)

fcastle866 · « **Reply #2505 on:** May 14, 2020, 04:41:18 PM »

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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?

Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.

If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" )

Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.

So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?

Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:

""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"

Since nobody has provided a source for "negotiable American currency" - not even FJ at DZ .... then the source of this must Tom Kaye and Carol Abraczinskas (2011) Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI.

Pending any documentation the phrase even exists in the Cooper literature, except in the minds of TK and Carol and FLYJACK, ... this phrase must be wiped from the Cooper lexicon. As an unproven invention of TK and Carol. and FLYJACK!

We need to compile a list of actual phrases attributed to Cooper or mentioned in witness testimony, and stop providing 'propeller theories' for public consumption.

Georger: The way this is written makes it sound like Tom and Carol made this whole thing up about "negotiable currency." There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking. I agree that we do not know for sure what Cooper said in this case, because some of it was passed from one stew to another or from a stew to the cockpit. But clearly there is documentation of this term, as I posted yesterday with pictures. Those crew notes are easily searchable online, and are available in Martin Andrade's book. You yourself responded to my post on this.

To note: I do not think Cooper was Canadian, or even foreign born, and I do not read into the "negotiable currency." as it is simply too short of a phrase to draw a reasonable conclusion from. I have never once in my life confused a non-American for an American, except Canadians, and that was only for a short time. I do however put this phrase into the same group as other early observations about Cooper that frankly I believe have led most of the public down the wrong path, and in essence protecting Cooper all these years. The FBI and the public were looking for a Canadian at times. A seasoned parachutist. A commando. A career criminal. Etc. Etc.

There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking.

Could you show them to us? Where are they? In crew notes? What crew notes where? In some document somewhere? Show us "negotiable American currency" in any document.

This should be simple if it exists somewhere? I cant find it. I dont know anyone who can find it either. Maybe we are all blind?

It either exists outside of Tom Kaye website, or it doesn't! Why would TK be the only person on Earth that has seen this in some document he can;t produce?

Moreover, the source may be Carol A, not Tom Kaye! Carol was the one supposedly working on the Comic history and reviewing FBI 302's and other documents. What document does "negotiable American currency" come from? Cite it!

Im not going to take anybody's word this document exists - until they show it or cite it or something! We need AUTHENTIFICATION

This is important. This is crucial to people's arguments!

Georger: What more do you need to see? Open the attachment.

georger · « **Reply #2506 on:** May 14, 2020, 04:44:33 PM »

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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?

Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.

If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" )

Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.

So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?

Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:

""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"

Since nobody has provided a source for "negotiable American currency" - not even FJ at DZ .... then the source of this must Tom Kaye and Carol Abraczinskas (2011) Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI.

Pending any documentation the phrase even exists in the Cooper literature, except in the minds of TK and Carol and FLYJACK, ... this phrase must be wiped from the Cooper lexicon. As an unproven invention of TK and Carol. and FLYJACK!

We need to compile a list of actual phrases attributed to Cooper or mentioned in witness testimony, and stop providing 'propeller theories' for public consumption.

Georger: The way this is written makes it sound like Tom and Carol made this whole thing up about "negotiable currency." There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking. I agree that we do not know for sure what Cooper said in this case, because some of it was passed from one stew to another or from a stew to the cockpit. But clearly there is documentation of this term, as I posted yesterday with pictures. Those crew notes are easily searchable online, and are available in Martin Andrade's book. You yourself responded to my post on this.

To note: I do not think Cooper was Canadian, or even foreign born, and I do not read into the "negotiable currency." as it is simply too short of a phrase to draw a reasonable conclusion from. I have never once in my life confused a non-American for an American, except Canadians, and that was only for a short time. I do however put this phrase into the same group as other early observations about Cooper that frankly I believe have led most of the public down the wrong path, and in essence protecting Cooper all these years. The FBI and the public were looking for a Canadian at times. A seasoned parachutist. A commando. A career criminal. Etc. Etc.

There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking.

Could you show them to us? Where are they? In crew notes? What crew notes where? In some document somewhere? Show us "negotiable American currency" in any document.

This should be simple if it exists somewhere? I cant find it. I dont know anyone who can find it either. Maybe we are all blind?

It either exists outside of Tom Kaye website, or it doesn't! Why would TK be the only person on Earth that has seen this in some document he can;t produce?

Moreover, the source may be Carol A, not Tom Kaye! Carol was the one supposedly working on the Comic history and reviewing FBI 302's and other documents. What document does "negotiable American currency" come from? Cite it!

Im not going to take anybody's word this document exists - until they show it or cite it or something! We need AUTHENTIFICATION

This is important. This is crucial to people's arguments!

Georger: What more do you need to see? Open the attachment.

I posted that last night. The phrase at stake is: "negotiable American currency" not "negotiable currency" .

Later ... there is no way out of this! I guess I will compile a loist of lal the different phrases diff people have used, in every doc Ican find. Give me a week!

EU · « **Reply #2507 on:** May 14, 2020, 04:51:19 PM »

What we're looking at are notes written by Flo as she sat in the cockpit and received word from Tina, via the interphone, who was relaying Cooper's demands.

All of that said, it was also reported that Cooper wanted "circulated" currency.

Therefore, I think it is reasonable to deduce that what Cooper actually requested was circulated currency, or at least currency that was used and not new. Meaning that the word "negotiable" is probably not Cooper's word.

Regardless, I've never had an issue with the term "negotiable currency." I'm quite certain that I've used a phrase very similar at various points in my life. I think it is a leap to suggest that this points to a Canadian. After all, a Canadian is also not likely to use the phrase "negotiable currency."

Bookman Old Style · « **Reply #2508 on:** May 14, 2020, 06:33:05 PM »

May I ask another question about a seemingly well-known fact, that is, Cooper wearing "loafers?" I know that it has been discussed here before, but only in passing. I just read a number of interviews with the crew in the "Vault' area of the website. All those describing Cooper's clothing described his dark "shoes," without specifying the kind, except for Tina Mucklow. In the section labeled: Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA: she is quoted as follows. Clothing: Dark brown suit possibly with thin black stripes, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not type shoes (loafers).

The wording is confusing to me. I suppose it could have been mis-transcribed, as the document i was reading was not an original (Word document, rather than a scan of a typewritten document). However, that could be read as meaning "ankle length shoes, but specifically not loafer type shoes." In other words, possibly even low cut boots. Not that it makes an enormous difference- Mark Metzler has said that he once jumped in loafers, with no big problems. It is part of the mythology, though. Are there other sources that describe Cooper wearing loafers?

Unsurelock · « **Reply #2509 on:** May 14, 2020, 08:30:25 PM »

Did y'all miss this one?

georger · « **Reply #2510 on:** May 14, 2020, 11:35:13 PM »

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Did y'all miss this one?

Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -

Unsurelock · « **Reply #2511 on:** May 14, 2020, 11:38:14 PM »

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Did y'all miss this one?

Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -

This is what Flyjack posted yesterday at DZ when you said he hadn't.

georger · « **Reply #2512 on:** May 14, 2020, 11:44:51 PM »

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Did y'all miss this one?

Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -

This is what Flyjack posted yesterday at DZ when you said he hadn't.

stop playing games - what is it and where is it from ? The PI Transcript?

Unsurelock · « **Reply #2513 on:** May 14, 2020, 11:49:36 PM »

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Did y'all miss this one?

Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -

This is what Flyjack posted yesterday at DZ when you said he hadn't.

stop playing games - what is it and where is it from ? The PI Transcript?

Say "mother may I".

georger · « **Reply #2514 on:** May 14, 2020, 11:56:44 PM »

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Did y'all miss this one?

Ok have it. Its from the PI Transcript as I originally thought. Maybe this is the "transcript" Kaye is referring to? Why doesn't he just say so and identify it! ?
quote:

3:13pm t1
305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle. Stewardess (Schaffner) has
been handed note requesting 200,000 and knapsack by 5:00pm this afternoon. Wants
2 back pack parachutes. Wants money in negotiable American currency denomination
of bills not important. Has bomb in briefcase and will use if anything is done to block
his request.

3:15pm t1 Scott instructs SEA not to interfere
305: After landing in SEA request no one meet aircraft to hinder. Do not want any
FBI agents or anyone to meet aircraft. Will park aircraft other than gate. Do not
want anyone to approach aircraft from any directions. Will advise later instructions.
Do not ant any equipment at aircraft. Roger?
SEA: Roger 305.

It's Scott or Rataczak doing the talking so its their words -

Lets ignore the games players and move on . . .

georger · « **Reply #2515 on:** May 15, 2020, 12:10:57 AM »

Paper straps vs Rubber bands ...

Would FLYJACK's paper strap claim stand up in Court? No. It would be laughed out of Court especially after Ckret etal testified!

However, there is no substitute for FLYJACK himself in his own words! Here is FLYJACK's rant at DZ just hours ago on this matter ... verbatim.

"FLYJACK
• 969 posts
• #61919
5 hours ago (edited)

The money bank bands or rubber bands..

Georger is such a moron.. typical histrionics from clown boy.
He doesn't understand the evidence, but worse he misstates my position so he can attack a strawman..

There were always rubber bands involved per Brian.. it was never rubber bands vs paper bands.
YOU SCREWED UP THE PACKETS VS BUNDLES... for a decade..

Cooper rec'd packets of 100 bills, they were strapped and possibly rubber banded.
Those packets were RUBBER BANDED into BUNDLES.. (many packets banded together)

get it,, packets are 100 bills and bundles are groups of packets..

The TBAR money had frags of rubber bands, the question is,,, were those rubber bands from the BUNDLES or packets... the bundles were randomized NOT the PACKETS.

The FBI has claimed the money was in order and from one bundle.. (group of packets)
Georger has spent ten years getting this wrong and two years mocking me from a position of utter ignorance.

Like herding kittens...

The significance is,, if the rubber bands held together groups of packets then TBAR $ arrived as one bundle, just as it was given to Cooper. On the other side, if the TBAR $ arrived as 3 individual packets how did they get separated since they were given to Cooper grouped into random bundles. In other words, the rubber bands holding the groups of packets into bundles would have to have been removed.

Georger still can't grasp the difference between a packet and a bundle.. Larry Carr got it wrong a decade ago and Georger still can't get it.

Edited 5 hours ago by FLYJACK "

There it is in it's full glory. Sad. Complex. Confusing. . . . nothing to back it up! No docs, no interviews of people at the bank, no interviews or testimony from anyone, no nuthin. There is nothing more I can add to this Flyjack fiasco.

Good luck.

Robert99 · « **Reply #2516 on:** May 15, 2020, 01:22:24 AM »

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Did y'all miss this one?

Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -

This wasn't missed at all. You might try reading the ARINC teletype messages in the "FBI Notes".

This is the teletype message through the ARINC system of NWA 305 passing the word to Minneapolis that they have been hijacked. Just above it is the time that NWA informed Minneapolis through the ARINC teletype system of the time the left the gate in Portland which 2:53 PM PST, their take-off time which was 2:58 PM PST, and their estimated time of arrival in Seattle which was 3:36 PM PST.

Cooper handed the "your being hijacked" note to Flo at about 2:57 PM PST just as the airliner was starting the take-off run.

georger · « **Reply #2517 on:** May 15, 2020, 01:36:32 AM »

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Did y'all miss this one?

Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -

This wasn't missed at all. You might try reading the ARINC teletype messages in the "FBI Notes".

This is the teletype message through the ARINC system of NWA 305 passing the word to Minneapolis that they have been hijacked. Just above it is the time that NWA informed Minneapolis through the ARINC teletype system of the time the left the gate in Portland which 2:53 PM PST, their take-off time which was 2:58 PM PST, and their estimated time of arrival in Seattle which was 3:36 PM PST.

Cooper handed the "your being hijacked" note to Flo at about 2:57 PM PST just as the airliner was starting the take-off run.

The issue is the same - are these Cooper's words vs someone else's words?

So certify its Cooper's words and not Scott's, Tina's, Flo's, . . . or some teletype operator's words ?

Has Flo already advised the cockpit he is Latin wanting to go to Mexico a foreign country? Does he want packets or bundles or packages or straps of bills, or all of these?

Robert99 · « **Reply #2518 on:** May 15, 2020, 01:30:53 PM »

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Did y'all miss this one?

Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -

This wasn't missed at all. You might try reading the ARINC teletype messages in the "FBI Notes".

This is the teletype message through the ARINC system of NWA 305 passing the word to Minneapolis that they have been hijacked. Just above it is the time that NWA informed Minneapolis through the ARINC teletype system of the time the left the gate in Portland which 2:53 PM PST, their take-off time which was 2:58 PM PST, and their estimated time of arrival in Seattle which was 3:36 PM PST.

Cooper handed the "your being hijacked" note to Flo at about 2:57 PM PST just as the airliner was starting the take-off run.

The issue is the same - are these Cooper's words vs someone else's words?

So certify its Cooper's words and not Scott's, Tina's, Flo's, . . . or some teletype operator's words ?

Has Flo already advised the cockpit he is Latin wanting to go to Mexico a foreign country? Does he want packets or bundles or packages or straps of bills, or all of these?

Reading the statements from Flo and Tina, plus the printouts of the messages sent over the ARINC teletype system to NWA Minneapolis and Seattle, shows that Tina was the first to advise the cockpit crew over the interphone that they were being hijacked even before she got out of her fold down seat which was on the rear bulkhead.

Flo took Cooper's note to the cockpit within a couple of minutes and Cooper's demands were immediately passed through the ARINC system to NWA Minneapolis and Seattle. Cooper's demands were known to NWA managers within minutes of the takeoff from Portland.

Flo stayed in the cockpit and copied information that Tina was passing to her through the interphone. Flo also passed information describing Cooper to NWA managers.

This is all in the statements and ARINC teletype printouts.

Shutter · « **Reply #2519 on:** May 15, 2020, 02:14:14 PM »

The matter of fact should be what is written on the note that came straight from Cooper's mouth....

Author Topic: General Questions About The Case (Read 838399 times)

fcastle866

Re: General Questions About The Case

georger

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EU

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Bookman Old Style

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Unsurelock

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georger

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Unsurelock

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georger

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Unsurelock

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georger

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georger

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Robert99

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georger

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Robert99

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Shutter

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