Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
Who is everyone? Well, you could get a good idea of who everyone is if you bothered to read the posts that predate your arrival here in 2017. In fact, there was a Cooper thread on DropZone that was started some time prior to the present one which was started in 2008 if I remember correctly.
There was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known his location to within 20 or 30 miles when he jumped. He would have to have made a wild guess as to his location. And he certainly was not dressed for a jump into a mountain or wilderness area. This little problem with an overcast and several additional cloud layers below the airliner means that Cooper could not see the ground and couldn't know what flight path the airliner was taking. Then with the airliner's airspeed varying widely during the first 15 minutes or so after taking off, Cooper could not possibly have known its location along any flight path.
There is no indication whatsoever that Cooper had an assistant in the hijacking. His fate was determined solely by himself.
For additional information, read the posts both here on Shutter's site and on DropZone.
Robert, spare me the condescending comments. I've read plenty on the case. I joined in 2018, not 2017. You obviously have some time on your hands, so why don't you go back to the posts and compile a list of who thinks he wanted to jump near Seattle, and who thinks he wanted to jump near Vancouver, or somewhere else. There are about 20-30 people max who study the case now, if you want I can give you a list of names and you can let me know what they all think. Kermit, me, and Flyjack think he wanted to jump somewhere else than Seattle. That's three. Let me know what you find.
You speak in absolutes. This case does not have a lot of absolutes. It's almost 50 years old and unsolved, so no one knows for sure.
The whole flight path was what 135 miles? And you don't think he could have known where he was within 30 miles? How often do you fly these days? Try out taking off and timing a flight from city to city. I've been doing it ever since I joined here, it's not hard to do between short hops like Seattle to Portland. Up until a week ago I flew commercial at least once a month, some long trips, but mainly 2 hours or less.
Be angry at someone else. I speak using facts when I can, and theory/opinion when I can't. I use observation and deduction. If you don't like my theories, no problem.
Fcastle, You need to read my post that you quoted just above. Telling you that you need to read the previous posts on this and the DZ sites does not mean that I am angry with you. Perhaps you could also pass the word to Kermit and Flyjack about reading previous posts.
You are going to have to do your own research. I have posted extensively on this matter at least a dozen times over the last decade and I am not going to waste more time doing it again when the information is readily available online. I am not a member of the Cooper vortex and have a real life with other activities ongoing.
You need to take a good look at a map and determine the true distance between SEATAC and Portland. It is not the 135 miles that you claim. Also, you need to check in with the FAA's superb web site and download and read some of their publications related to navigation. You might find them informative.
I have done my fair share of long flights from point to point in the middle of the night with me being the only person on the aircraft. That means I must have been able to navigate successfully between those points since here I am writing this post.
There are a handful of "absolutes" in the Cooper matter. And I have previously discussed them online in case you are interested.
Robert: What is the air to air distance from SEATAC to PDX? I wrote 135 miles, because that's what I remember from my notes, but those are on a mish mash of Word and PowerPoint docs and in folders. I wish I had kept a better log like Bruce, but I never really planned to need to go back to the notes I made literally within a few days of joining this case.
I believe that if Cooper was a trained pilot or navigator, then he would have been able to judge where he was. He was likely a World War II era veteran, and if he was on a plane in the 1940s or 50s then he would have learned to figure out his location without a radio beacon, odometer, GPS, etc. That's what I believe. Opinion, whatever you want to call it. No need to debate this point. We disagree.
All you need to do is check the maps that Shutter has archived here on his site to determine the distance between SEATAC and PDX.
So Cooper could figure out his location without being able to see the ground, without knowing his ground speed (which would require him knowing the airliner's airspeed and the winds aloft), and presumably without a compass as well? Why don't you write up an article for the Institute of Navigation on how he could do that? The ION could use some levity since just about all of their recent articles involve things even more advanced than GPS systems.
Remember that Columbus discovered America and only had an astrolabe and a magnetized needle floating on a straw in a bowl of water for navigation. Admittedly, the Western Hemisphere would be hard to miss if he just kept sailing west towards the setting sun.
R99: You're correct, Columbus did basically keep sailing west and eventually hit land, although it was a big target.
R99 or anyone: Are these numbers close, or are there better ones? I'm going off memory here.
Flight 305 air speed: 175 MPH (what the plane would have flown with flaps 15, gear down, etc.)
Ground speed with no wind: 175 MPH. Same as air speed.
Distance (as the crow flies) from SEATAC to PDX: 129 miles
Winds aloft: I've heard anywhere from 0-20 MPH. Variable winds likely.
Actual ground speed: ?
Do side to side winds matter, or just against or behind the plane?
How is a pilot able to announce to the passengers the time it will take to get from one airport to another, and if those airports are closer together, does the margin of error get reduced? How do aircraft timetables work and are they generally accurate?
Given rough numbers of 175 MPH, and 129 miles, the fastest the trip could have taken with zero winds is about 45 minutes. If there were tail winds, it would decrease, head winds an increase. If the speed was higher, which is could have been given that Cooper said to "slow down" at one point, then the times change....
What would the upper and lower times be for this flight from Seattle to Portland: My back of the napkin math has it between 40 minutes with a tailwind, and 50 minutes with a head wind.
