I don't have the time right now to start removing posts made today and will deal with this tomorrow. I suggest EVERYONE start discussing the case here or I'll just lock all the threads down and take a long vacation.

Are we CRYSTAL CLEAR?

Shutter

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Here's a question worth pondering:

What was Cooper's Plan A?

After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?

Cheers!

Since very few actual facts are known, letā€™s debate your opinion that Cooperā€™s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I donā€™t see it any more logical or likely than many otherā€™s theories.
Since you like to debate, letā€™s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !

Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as  possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.

Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again.  All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.

The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week.  And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads.  Just read the posts.

Robert: Who is everyone?  I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to.  I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.

I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?

I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.

The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?"  Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building?  Where do you think he planned to land?

Who is everyone?  Well, you could get a good idea of who everyone is if you bothered to read the posts that predate your arrival here in 2017.  In fact, there was a Cooper thread on DropZone that was started some time prior to the present one which was started in 2008 if I remember correctly.

There was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known his location to within 20 or 30 miles when he jumped.  He would have to have made a wild guess as to his location.  And he certainly was not dressed for a jump into a mountain or wilderness area.  This little problem with an overcast and several additional cloud layers below the airliner means that Cooper could not see the ground and couldn't know what flight path the airliner was taking.  Then with the airliner's airspeed varying widely during the first 15 minutes or so after taking off, Cooper could not possibly have known its location along any flight path. 

There is no indication whatsoever that Cooper had an assistant in the hijacking.  His fate was determined solely by himself.

For additional information, read the posts both here on Shutter's site and on DropZone.

Robert, spare me the condescending comments.  I've read plenty on the case.  I joined in 2018, not 2017.  You obviously have some time on your hands, so why don't you go back to the posts and compile a list of who thinks he wanted to jump near Seattle, and who thinks he wanted to jump near Vancouver, or somewhere else.  There are about 20-30 people max who study the case now, if you want I can give you a list of names and you can let me know what they all think.  Kermit, me, and Flyjack think he wanted to jump somewhere else than Seattle.  That's three.  Let me know what you find.

You speak in absolutes.  This case does not have a lot of absolutes.  It's almost 50 years old and unsolved, so no one knows for sure.

The whole flight path was what 135 miles? And you don't think he could have known where he was within 30 miles? How often do you fly these days?  Try out taking off and timing a flight from city to city.  I've been doing it ever since I joined here, it's not hard to do between short hops like Seattle to Portland.  Up until a week ago I flew commercial at least once a month, some long trips, but mainly 2 hours or less.

Be angry at someone else.  I speak using facts when I can, and theory/opinion when I can't.  I use observation and deduction.  If you don't like my theories, no problem.

Fcastle, You need to read my post that you quoted just above.  Telling you that you need to read the previous posts on this and the DZ sites does not mean that I am angry with you.  Perhaps you could also pass the word to Kermit and Flyjack about reading previous posts.

You are going to have to do your own research.  I have posted extensively on this matter at least a dozen times over the last decade and I am not going to waste more time doing it again when the information is readily available online.  I am not a member of the Cooper vortex and have a real life with other activities ongoing.

You need to take a good look at a map and determine the true distance between SEATAC and Portland.  It is not the 135 miles that you claim.  Also, you need to check in with the FAA's superb web site and download and read some of their publications related to navigation.  You might find them informative.

I have done my fair share of long flights from point to point in the middle of the night with me being the only person on the aircraft.  That means I must have been able to navigate successfully between those points since here I am writing this post.

There are a handful of "absolutes" in the Cooper matter.  And I have previously discussed them online in case you are interested.

Robert: What is the air to air distance from SEATAC to PDX?  I wrote 135 miles, because that's what I remember from my notes, but those are on a mish mash of Word and PowerPoint docs and in folders.  I wish I had kept a better log like Bruce, but I never really planned to need to go back to the notes I made literally within a few days of joining this case.

I believe that if Cooper was a trained pilot or navigator, then he would have been able to judge where he was.  He was likely a World War II era veteran, and if he was on a plane in the 1940s or 50s then he would have learned to figure out his location without a radio beacon, odometer, GPS, etc.  That's what I believe.  Opinion, whatever you want to call it.  No need to debate this point.  We disagree.

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Robert: Who is everyone?  I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to.  I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.

I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?

I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.

The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?"  Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building?  Where do you think he planned to land?

The demands regarding the airstairs are clear per the FBI docs. Cooper wanted the airstairs down during takeoff. Scott debated this point with him and Cooper relented. Then several minutes later Cooper re-opened the discussion with Scott. Once again, Cooper relented.

Let me ask this question: If, as you suggest, Cooper intended to jump near Vancouver...

1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?

2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?

3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?

4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?

5) Why wear a suit and loafers?

EU: I'm just getting back to this.  Some of these debates may end up being part of a lifeline for many of us as the days locked up start to get to us.  With that said, I'll throw some of my ideas out on this.  None of which prove or disprove a suspect.  They are just ideas.

1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?

A part of me thinks that Cooper may have wanted to abort, and maybe even planned to, but things kept going right for him.  If he did abort, I suspect it is as simple as him landing in Seattle and getting off the plane.  If he was alone on a business trip and Seattle was not his final destination, then I guess he would have to fly back to Portland, or drive, or take a bus, etc.  Someone might have been expecting him and been worried, who knows.  So many things could have gone wrong for him, so flying to Seattle as a regular passenger had to be a real possibility for him.  I'll have to think some more about this one.

2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance? 

R99 is already on edge about this one.  I've stated a few of my points.  I think he would assume the plane would have to fly south at some point, and once he leaves the cities of Seattle and Tacoma, the next time he sees civilization should be Vancouver/Portland.  Bottom line is that he could not be certain of the flight path, he could however increase his odds by stating a southern point and an altitude.  If he had a death wish, then as a gambler all he had to do was turn the odds a little in his favor, like watching cards in blackjack or poker.  I think he got very very lucky, but he also had some preparation.

3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds? 

What are the options of what city it is if he sees a glow?  There aren't many to choose from, especially if he's been seeing nothing but darkness for a while.  The plane leaves South Seattle what does he see next?

4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence? 

He wants to jump before the river, which is the main body of water.  If someone were to take a snapshot of the general landing area, maybe a 10 mile by 10 mile or a 5 mile by 5 mile, what percent of that would be land and what percent would be water?  It's around 95% land, maybe more.  The odds are he would have landed on land.  I guess it's also possible that he was brazen and thought he could survive landing in the water.  Water seems pretty easy to get out of until you've tried to do it with a parachute on.  Or maybe he knew how to get out of the water.  Skilled or not, landing in the river was not a good option.

5) Why wear a suit and loafers? 

Jumping in loafers meant landing in socks.  Something does not fit there for me.  He had to have done something with his feet (changed shoes, taped the shoes to his ankles) or maybe the loafers were not loafers.  We still don't know what was in the bag.  Why wear a suit and loafers? Because wearing jeans and motorcycle boots just would not have been as cool.

Just some thoughts.  I could play devil's advocate and probably come up with opposite theories too, but these are what are in my mind.

EU: I'm just getting back to this.  Some of these debates may end up being part of a lifeline for many of us as the days locked up start to get to us.  With that said, I'll throw some of my ideas out on this.  None of which prove or disprove a suspect.  They are just ideas.

1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?

A part of me thinks that Cooper may have wanted to abort, and maybe even planned to, but things kept going right for him.  If he did abort, I suspect it is as simple as him landing in Seattle and getting off the plane.  If he was alone on a business trip and Seattle was not his final destination, then I guess he would have to fly back to Portland, or drive, or take a bus, etc.  Someone might have been expecting him and been worried, who knows.  So many things could have gone wrong for him, so flying to Seattle as a regular passenger had to be a real possibility for him.  I'll have to think some more about this one.

2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance? 

R99 is already on edge about this one.  I've stated a few of my points.  I think he would assume the plane would have to fly south at some point, and once he leaves the cities of Seattle and Tacoma, the next time he sees civilization should be Vancouver/Portland.  Bottom line is that he could not be certain of the flight path, he could however increase his odds by stating a southern point and an altitude.  If he had a death wish, then as a gambler all he had to do was turn the odds a little in his favor, like watching cards in blackjack or poker.  I think he got very very lucky, but he also had some preparation.

3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds? 

What are the options of what city it is if he sees a glow?  There aren't many to choose from, especially if he's been seeing nothing but darkness for a while.  The plane leaves South Seattle what does he see next?

4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence? 

He wants to jump before the river, which is the main body of water.  If someone were to take a snapshot of the general landing area, maybe a 10 mile by 10 mile or a 5 mile by 5 mile, what percent of that would be land and what percent would be water?  It's around 95% land, maybe more.  The odds are he would have landed on land.  I guess it's also possible that he was brazen and thought he could survive landing in the water.  Water seems pretty easy to get out of until you've tried to do it with a parachute on.  Or maybe he knew how to get out of the water.  Skilled or not, landing in the river was not a good option.

5) Why wear a suit and loafers? 

Jumping in loafers meant landing in socks.  Something does not fit there for me.  He had to have done something with his feet (changed shoes, taped the shoes to his ankles) or maybe the loafers were not loafers.  We still don't know what was in the bag.  Why wear a suit and loafers? Because wearing jeans and motorcycle boots just would not have been as cool.

Just some thoughts.  I could play devil's advocate and probably come up with opposite theories too, but these are what are in my mind.

Your thoughts are perfectly rational and well thought out. That said, I strongly side with the Jump-near-Seattle narrative.

Good post.

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Welcome Fcastle and many others who have a clear and open mind. We donā€™t need to accept other opinions as being factual ! Contrary to some posters opinions, our thoughts
and logic is just as good and perhaps better than those opinions that were made 10, 20, 30, 40 or 48 years ago. Just for the record I joined this forum around 2007 but I was in Portland in 1971. I live there since my folks moved to Portland area in 1946 from Minnesota. I fished and water skied every square mile of the Columbia river from Bonneville dam to Buoy 10 at the mouth of the Columbia river. I drove around Tina Bar in and before 1971 and I drove there just yesterday ! Guess what ? There were 18 wheelers driving around there also! Iā€™m pretty positive Tina Bar is NOT an Island. Also Iā€™ve asked Eric to please explain to me why any person would seriously decide to bury the entire equivalent of $ 1,200,000. Dollars on a public beach which was frequently visited by fisherman on a daily basis. Iā€™m sorry but I fail to find it logical ! He didnā€™t have any answer a year ago and Iā€™d be very interested in how he explains it today. You see some thoughts are as relevant today as they were 48 years ago ! Welcome aboard all you logical thinkers and no itā€™s not necessary to always rehash old posts.

Kermit, What does your clear and open mind say about Key West, Florida?  Is it an island?  I don't specifically remember seeing any 18 wheelers driving around there, but I do remember seeing about 100 miles worth of bridges and a heck of a lot of water in driving to Key West.

Glad you asked ! Iā€™ve drove my Motor Home there also. The Key word is bridges and there are many of them ! They connect many Islands that we call the Florida Keys. Huge difference as Tina Bar is NOT completely surrounded on ALL sides by water! Youā€™ve been to Tina Bar as I was just yesterday. Guess what ? I didnā€™t need to cross over 42 bridges to get there.BTW My son owns and drives an 18 wheeler and yes they do drive across those bridges from one Island to another.
Any other questions ?

Letā€™s get back to the basis of the fact that Cooper stated correctly that the plane indeed could take off with the stairs lowered. Did it ever enter anyoneā€™s minds that until the stairs were lowered, everyone certainly knew Cooper hadnā€™t jumped yet. Therefore as soon as the stairs were lowered, it was possible that perhaps he had bailed. If I was Cooper,
I would want those stairs lowered all the way from SeaTac until plane landed in Reno. We must remember that itā€™s a fact that the FBI stormed the plane in Reno so in actuality they were still thinking he might. Still be on plane. That could easily be why he wanted stairs lowered from start to finish as the search area is greatly enlarged. I simply donā€™t see any real reason to come to the conclusion that Cooper wanted to bail right out of Seattle ! Keep in mind his caper started in Portland ! Unless he had an accomplice, itā€™s logical that his escape vehicle might just be somewhere in Portland, Vancouver vicinity. The real truth is that nobody knew in 1971 what his thoughts were and nobody really has any idea still in 2020.

A statement and a question.

1.  Comment: I watched EU's video late last night and there was a point about a major piece of information coming out, and that the FBI was involved in letting a group go to the federal wildlife area.  I'm hopeful that there may be some game changing information coming, and that the FBI may have had some more involvement than usual.  I'd personally love to see something of Cooper's being found (briefcase parts, bomb parts), or the FBI re-opening the case, or the FBI willing to put some DNA information out.  Regardless of any differences in theories, these TV shows will bring some good visibility to the case. 

2.  Question: I looked at my old notes and in April of 2018 I did some measurements on Google Maps using the straight line distance. I show SEATAC to Portland as 134 miles as the crow files. I assume I measured SEATAC the airport to downtown Portland.  An air mileage calculator online shows SEATAC to PDX being 129 miles.  Am I in the general ballpark for distance?  Thanks.

A statement and a question.

1.  Comment: I watched EU's video late last night and there was a point about a major piece of information coming out, and that the FBI was involved in letting a group go to the federal wildlife area.  I'm hopeful that there may be some game changing information coming, and that the FBI may have had some more involvement than usual.  I'd personally love to see something of Cooper's being found (briefcase parts, bomb parts), or the FBI re-opening the case, or the FBI willing to put some DNA information out.  Regardless of any differences in theories, these TV shows will bring some good visibility to the case. 

2.  Question: I looked at my old notes and in April of 2018 I did some measurements on Google Maps using the straight line distance. I show SEATAC to Portland as 134 miles as the crow files. I assume I measured SEATAC the airport to downtown Portland.  An air mileage calculator online shows SEATAC to PDX being 129 miles.  Am I in the general ballpark for distance?  Thanks.

I just want to clarify a point made in my video and referenced in your Point 1 above.

The FBI did not give us permission to search in the restricted area, that permission was granted via a separate federal department. That said, the FBI did grant us special privileges.