Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 838765 times)

Offline Lynn

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1830 on: April 25, 2018, 10:40:14 PM »
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Attempted to determine Hahneman's height from the pic..

The car he is next to is a late 60's Volvo 144, matched the angle to a full image of the same model to get the full roofline.

The Volvo model 144 is 56.7 inches in height.. using measurements and ratio's to compare Hahneman to the Volvo, he is about 6' tall. This isn't 100% accurate but puts him within Cooper's height range..
The biggest thing is that Hanneman's demeaner was much different than Cooper's. I hope when they release more FBI files that the well known suspects have their name attached to the the files the way McCoy's was. It would be interesting to see  what eliminated him from a suspect list.

Possible explanation..
The Hahneman hijacking environment was different from Cooper.. The Hahneman airplane had many more passengers who were aware of the hijacking, passengers even confronted Hahneman, he had more pressure and was forced to be aggressive. Norjak had few passengers and none were aware of the hijacking. Cooper only dealt with the stew's..
Yes, and that is another reason why Hahneman is unlikely to be Cooper. Cooper is documented as having specifically chosen that passengers not know of the hijacking. By using a gun and conducting the hijacking the way he did, Hahneman caused these confrontations that Cooper avoided. Cooper showed the bomb quietly to the stewardess, kept the passengers in the dark, and did not explode at delays beyond the point of impatience. It makes no sense that in his follow-up crime, he would change the parts of his m.o. that worked.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1831 on: April 25, 2018, 10:57:47 PM »
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Attempted to determine Hahneman's height from the pic..

The car he is next to is a late 60's Volvo 144, matched the angle to a full image of the same model to get the full roofline.

The Volvo model 144 is 56.7 inches in height.. using measurements and ratio's to compare Hahneman to the Volvo, he is about 6' tall. This isn't 100% accurate but puts him within Cooper's height range..
The biggest thing is that Hanneman's demeaner was much different than Cooper's. I hope when they release more FBI files that the well known suspects have their name attached to the the files the way McCoy's was. It would be interesting to see  what eliminated him from a suspect list.

Possible explanation..
The Hahneman hijacking environment was different from Cooper.. The Hahneman airplane had many more passengers who were aware of the hijacking, passengers even confronted Hahneman, he had more pressure and was forced to be aggressive. Norjak had few passengers and none were aware of the hijacking. Cooper only dealt with the stew's..
Yes, and that is another reason why Hahneman is unlikely to be Cooper. Cooper is documented as having specifically chosen that passengers not know of the hijacking. By using a gun and conducting the hijacking the way he did, Hahneman caused these confrontations that Cooper avoided. Cooper showed the bomb quietly to the stewardess, kept the passengers in the dark, and did not explode at delays beyond the point of impatience. It makes no sense that in his follow-up crime, he would change the parts of his m.o. that worked.

Well, the Pilot announced it.. and we don't know if Cooper had a gun...

Hahneman was forced to draw his gun when he a passenger was aggressive with him.

It doesn't eliminate him..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1832 on: April 29, 2018, 10:19:52 AM »
Here is a little bit about the testing of the stairs...
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1833 on: April 30, 2018, 01:54:11 PM »
It's easy to slam and belittle the FBI's NORJACK investigation, but this shows that they were looking in some right places.

Wonder if the redacted portion says who paid for the drop testing?

377
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 01:55:31 PM by 377 »
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1834 on: April 30, 2018, 02:46:44 PM »
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It's easy to slam and belittle the FBI's NORJACK investigation, but this shows that they were looking in some right places.

Wonder if the redacted portion says who paid for the drop testing?

377

Yes. The assumption is that DBC 'might' have some formal technical background related to the 727 vs. being just some observant guy who put 2+2 together and decided to take advantage of it. The particles on the tie only deepen that suspicion. But, at the same time the FBI is following these lines of investigation, the FBI did not know about the tie particles! God only knows what the FBI would have done and where they would have looked if they had had that evidence.   

Through one means or another, the whole investigation was 'deprived' of hard physical evidence at the most crucial time - forensic evidence which agents were not trained to focus on and preserve? It haunts this case to this day!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 02:51:43 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1835 on: April 30, 2018, 05:29:56 PM »
Georger wrote: "Through one means or another, the whole investigation was 'deprived' of hard physical evidence at the most crucial time - forensic evidence which agents were not trained to focus on and preserve? It haunts this case to this day!"

And to think the FBI likely HAD good DNA on those cig butts. And why did the FBI Lab at Quantico fail to do what TK and his team did? Examining the tie for particle clues seems so basic.

So many almosts and what-ifs. Frustrating.

377
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 05:30:57 PM by 377 »
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1836 on: April 30, 2018, 06:04:18 PM »
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Georger wrote: "Through one means or another, the whole investigation was 'deprived' of hard physical evidence at the most crucial time - forensic evidence which agents were not trained to focus on and preserve? It haunts this case to this day!"

And to think the FBI likely HAD good DNA on those cig butts. And why did the FBI Lab at Quantico fail to do what TK and his team did? Examining the tie for particle clues seems so basic.

So many almosts and what-ifs. Frustrating.

377

It has been explained to me that (1) agents didnt generally have a lot of forensic training and (2) the lab was not free to go off on its own. The lab could only do tests ordered by someone. The lab had fairly deep capability and it certainly was informed about how to find and preserve evidence. For some reason those assets were not transferred to the field or all evidence would have been transferred to a common storage center for saving and processing, as the need developed.       
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1837 on: May 04, 2018, 08:37:09 PM »
In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?
 

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1838 on: May 05, 2018, 01:03:05 AM »
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?

Cooper did not ask for any maps nor did he specify any particular route for the airliner to follow when heading south from Seattle.  Cooper said that he wanted to go to Mexico but was told that the 727 could not fly there nonstop in the configuration he dictated.  He did agree, before takeoff, to land in Reno for refueling.  But Cooper did not specify any route to be followed to get to Reno nor did he ask for the airliner's location at any point after the takeoff from Seattle.  And the airliner was flying above an overcast so that Cooper could not see the ground and/or get any meaningful information about the airliner's position.

I have not seen anything in the records of Cooper referring to the cockpit crew as fly boys.  Also, Cooper did not see any of the cockpit crew nor did they see him.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 01:05:07 AM by Robert99 »
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1839 on: May 05, 2018, 01:05:16 AM »
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?

Cooper did not ask for any maps nor did he specify any particular route for the airliner to follow when heading south from Seattle.  Cooper said that he wanted to go to Mexico but was told that the 727 could not fly there nonstop in the configuration he dictated.  He did agree, before takeoff, to land in Reno for refueling.  But Cooper did not specify any route to be followed to get to Reno nor did he ask for the airliner's location at any point after the takeoff from Seattle.  And the airliner was flying above an overcast so that Cooper could not see the ground and/or get any meaningful information about the airliner's position.

Hancock in her interview says he asked for maps but she could not remember maps for what...

Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:
1)   He wanted the money brought on board first.
2)   We wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.
3)   We wanted parachutes and four crew meals.
4)   He wanted the plane completely refueled.
5)   We wanted maps.
She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 01:07:16 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1840 on: May 05, 2018, 01:24:14 AM »
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?

Cooper did not ask for any maps nor did he specify any particular route for the airliner to follow when heading south from Seattle.  Cooper said that he wanted to go to Mexico but was told that the 727 could not fly there nonstop in the configuration he dictated.  He did agree, before takeoff, to land in Reno for refueling.  But Cooper did not specify any route to be followed to get to Reno nor did he ask for the airliner's location at any point after the takeoff from Seattle.  And the airliner was flying above an overcast so that Cooper could not see the ground and/or get any meaningful information about the airliner's position.

Hancock in her interview says he asked for maps but she could not remember maps for what...

Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:
1)   He wanted the money brought on board first.
2)   We wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.
3)   We wanted parachutes and four crew meals.
4)   He wanted the plane completely refueled.
5)   We wanted maps.
She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.


Airline crews that fly regular routes typically only carry IFR enroute maps and approach plates for that route and perhaps adjacent areas.  They may also carry world maps (which cover more area than sectional charts) and includes some topographical information.  But they typically do not carry such maps for the entire US if they only fly domestically.

Al Lee had to scramble to find IFR maps and approach plates for the areas south of Portland.  He included those maps in the box along with the crew meals that was loaded onto the aircraft.

If Hancock is right and Cooper did ask for maps, he may have been asking for maps for the cockpit crew.  If so, Cooper may have had some experience as a pilot or cockpit crew member. 
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1841 on: May 05, 2018, 01:44:24 AM »
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?

Cooper did not ask for any maps nor did he specify any particular route for the airliner to follow when heading south from Seattle.  Cooper said that he wanted to go to Mexico but was told that the 727 could not fly there nonstop in the configuration he dictated.  He did agree, before takeoff, to land in Reno for refueling.  But Cooper did not specify any route to be followed to get to Reno nor did he ask for the airliner's location at any point after the takeoff from Seattle.  And the airliner was flying above an overcast so that Cooper could not see the ground and/or get any meaningful information about the airliner's position.

Hancock in her interview says he asked for maps but she could not remember maps for what...

Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:
1)   He wanted the money brought on board first.
2)   We wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.
3)   We wanted parachutes and four crew meals.
4)   He wanted the plane completely refueled.
5)   We wanted maps.
She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.


Airline crews that fly regular routes typically only carry IFR enroute maps and approach plates for that route and perhaps adjacent areas.  They may also carry world maps (which cover more area than sectional charts) and includes some topographical information.  But they typically do not carry such maps for the entire US if they only fly domestically.

Al Lee had to scramble to find IFR maps and approach plates for the areas south of Portland.  He included those maps in the box along with the crew meals that was loaded onto the aircraft.

If Hancock is right and Cooper did ask for maps, he may have been asking for maps for the cockpit crew.  If so, Cooper may have had some experience as a pilot or cockpit crew member.

Hancock could have confused Cooper asking for maps with the crew scrambling for maps. Lets check the crew interviews and what other crew members recalled ... 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1842 on: May 05, 2018, 06:30:06 PM »
The crew was asking about maps and approach plates. it's very possible they were added to the list of demands..what would maps do for Cooper in the dark? it's not a GPS ....plus everyone believes he was familiar with the area and where he jumped?
 

FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1843 on: May 05, 2018, 09:58:35 PM »
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The crew was asking about maps and approach plates. it's very possible they were added to the list of demands..what would maps do for Cooper in the dark? it's not a GPS ....plus everyone believes he was familiar with the area and where he jumped?

I thought it was the crew that asked for maps/charts
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1844 on: May 05, 2018, 11:31:37 PM »
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The crew was asking about maps and approach plates. it's very possible they were added to the list of demands..what would maps do for Cooper in the dark? it's not a GPS ....plus everyone believes he was familiar with the area and where he jumped?

I thought it was the crew that asked for maps/charts

me too -  :-\
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 11:33:59 PM by georger »