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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?

Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.

This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.

Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.

No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.

Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip.

No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.

All small plane ground citings reported were thoroughly investigated in the days following 11-24-71. See the FOIA files. What McCoy and others did is irrelevant! What Colbert and Ramtha say is irrelevant!  What camels and bears say and think is irrelevant! 

It's time to get back to the case and that is exactly what some of us have decided to do - hopefully more will follow with some new faces (all qualified people in their areas of expertise who have never been on any Cooper talk show forum before).

We are fast approaching the 50th Anniversary,, the same thinking over that time has failed to solve this case. Traditional investigative thinking has failed. New thinking is needed.

The best clue is the tie particle matrix...other than a dental lab (school), any other environments match?

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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?

Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.

This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.

Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.

No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.

Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip.

No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.

All small plane ground citings reported were thoroughly investigated in the days following 11-24-71. See the FOIA files. What McCoy and others did is irrelevant! What Colbert and Ramtha say is irrelevant!  What camels and bears say and think is irrelevant! 

It's time to get back to the case and that is exactly what some of us have decided to do - hopefully more will follow with some new faces (all qualified people in their areas of expertise who have never been on any Cooper talk show forum before).

We are fast approaching the 50th Anniversary,, the same thinking over that time has failed to solve this case. Traditional investigative thinking has failed. New thinking is needed.

The best clue is the tie particle matrix...other than a dental lab (school), any other environments match?

The new tie particle list is one set of 'clues' but the details of those particles remains under-developed. That's just a fact. Yours is simply one more suspect with one interpretation/set of claims. We have been down that old road so many times dogs don't even need noses to find the 'prize'! But keep barking and advertising in social media anyway -       

I prefer to work known problems vs sitting around thinking up new ones and advertising them! I have no suspect who lived in a termite infested building and did dental work to sell! The particle list you refer to exists because of Basic Research, and for no other reason. 

In summary, you have no matching particle environment.

I found the dental lab to be the best match that I could find but that doesn't mean it is the right one. If there are others let's look at them.

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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?

Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.

This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.

Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.

How about taking the flares used for the fake bomb, and chucking them out the plane at intervals?   if they had a general rendezvous point on V23 and that there's only a few major roads, well...

Bears and feral dogs are attracted to flares. Cooper and his money would have been eaten. The money at Tina Bar proves there were no flares. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?

Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.

This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.

Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.

How about taking the flares used for the fake bomb, and chucking them out the plane at intervals?   if they had a general rendezvous point on V23 and that there's only a few major roads, well...

I've considered that he could have used the bomb/flares to signal from the ground, Colbert's story has a pickup truck flashing lights. The real problem is the flightpath is the hijacker could have been 25+ miles E or W of an intended target.

There are only two scenarios that would make a "rendezvous" possible. If the hijacker did direct the flightpath and FBI is withholding that info or he planned to jump immediately after takeoff, the further the plane flew the larger the variability. The hijacker must have had a planned LZ. So, IMO he didn't necessarily jump where he had intended.

What if the plane flew out over the Ocean..

Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped.  But NWA management ruled that out.

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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?

Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.

The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."

Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight.  The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland.  V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).

There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E.  And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.

This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.

Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.

How about taking the flares used for the fake bomb, and chucking them out the plane at intervals?   if they had a general rendezvous point on V23 and that there's only a few major roads, well...

I've considered that he could have used the bomb/flares to signal from the ground, Colbert's story has a pickup truck flashing lights. The real problem is the flightpath is the hijacker could have been 25+ miles E or W of an intended target.

There are only two scenarios that would make a "rendezvous" possible. If the hijacker did direct the flightpath and FBI is withholding that info or he planned to jump immediately after takeoff, the further the plane flew the larger the variability. The hijacker must have had a planned LZ. So, IMO he didn't necessarily jump where he had intended.

What if the plane flew out over the Ocean..

But they didn't! 

"Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped.  But NWA management ruled that out."

Had he done that, and Cooper drowned, would it have been a homicide? Not really self-defense as once Cooper left the plane, even over land, he wasn't a threat to the crew. An exit over obscured water just assured DOA. You have the intent to kill and no self-defense mitigation. No prosecutor would have pursued it but it's an interesting law school hypothetical. If I were defending the Capt. I'd say that it was done for bomb safety and Cooper colde have avoided death by staying on the plane, so his death wasn't caused by the act of another.

377

Since the crew had also been informed by the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow the aircraft up when he jumped, their attorney could also claim that they were acting to prevent deaths on the ground due to the falling debris.  The crew would certainly have been killed if the bomb went off anywhere, but they could have avoided injuries on the ground if everything fell into the Pacific.

The captain of an aircraft has essentially the same authority as a ship captain.  He can do just about anything to ensure the safety of his aircraft and passengers.  He may have to do a lot of explaining later, but no action is going to be taken against him.  Even if charges are filed, no jury is going to convict him.  The captain is the captain and that is the whole story.

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"Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped.  But NWA management ruled that out."

Had he done that, and Cooper drowned, would it have been a homicide? Not really self-defense as once Cooper left the plane, even over land, he wasn't a threat to the crew. An exit over obscured water just assured DOA. You have the intent to kill and no self-defense mitigation. No prosecutor would have pursued it but it's an interesting law school hypothetical. If I were defending the Capt. I'd say that it was done for bomb safety and Cooper colde have avoided death by staying on the plane, so his death wasn't caused by the act of another.

377

Since the crew had also been informed by the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow the aircraft up when he jumped, their attorney could also claim that they were acting to prevent deaths on the ground due to the falling debris.  The crew would certainly have been killed if the bomb went off anywhere, but they could have avoided injuries on the ground if everything fell into the Pacific.

The captain of an aircraft has essentially the same authority as a ship captain.  He can do just about anything to ensure the safety of his aircraft and passengers.  He may have to do a lot of explaining later, but no action is going to be taken against him.  Even if charges are filed, no jury is going to convict him.  The captain is the captain and that is the whole story.

All Cooper victims may be entitled to a SubstaNTIAL cASH pAYMENT! File your claim by Dec 25th 2098.

Perhaps the attorney representing the victims could hire a private investigator to locate Cooper and his assets.